Feature: No More Free BitKeeper

Submitted by Jeremy
on April 5, 2005 - 10:10pm

BitKeeper was first utilized by a Linux project in December of 1999, when it was employed by the Linux PowerPC project. Then in February of 2002, Linux creator Linus Torvalds decided that BitKeeper was "the best tool for the job" and started using it to manage the mainline kernel, an event that received much attention in the free and open source communities [story], and beyond. BitMover, the company behind BitKeeper, was founded by its current CEO, Larry McVoy [interview], who originally conceived of BitKeeper as a tool to keep Linus from getting burnt out by the growing task of managing the Linux Kernel. Since Linus began using the tool three years ago, the pace of Linux kernel development has doubled [story].

There are two definitions for the word "free" that are commonly used to describe software. The first is "Free as in Freedom", and the other is "Free as in Free Beer". BitKeeper was made available freely under the latter definition, allowing free and open source software developers to use the tool without having to pay any money. It was provided under the agreement that anyone actively using the free tool would not develop a competing product at the same time. In other words, the aim was to provide a tool that could be freely used, but not freely cloned. At the same time, a more advanced version of BitKeeper has been sold commercially, and both products remain the intellectual property of BitMover.

A vocal group has long protested Linus' use of BitKeeper, considering Linux the free and open source flagship product. GNU Project founder Richard Stallman [interview] is among the protestors, harshly criticizing Linus' decision to use a non-free (as in freedom) tool [story]. However, most acknowledge that no free tool currently exists that is as powerful as BitKeeper, offering the ability to perform truly distributed development. Attempts to reverse engineer some of BitKeeper's features have lead to repeated cautions by BitMover. Most recently two such reverse engineering attempts have contributed to BitMover's decision to end the development and availability of the free BitKeeper product.


"Best Tool For The Job"
Shortly after Linus began using BitKeeper, he described it as the "Best Tool For The Job". Unlike most tools that require a central repository to house the master copy of whatever data is under version control, BitKeeper allows a truly distributed system in which everybody owns their own master copy. Furthermore, most version control systems look at individual files, and even individual sections of the same files, as indepent entities. If a change is made in file A, and another change is then made in file B, the version control software will allow someone to only merge the changes in file B. With BitKeeper, this is not possible. Instead, to get the changes in file B, you must first get the changes in file A. This design ensures that the two repositories are exact duplicates.

Larry McVoy explained that when Linus first began using BitKeeper, he struggled with and complained about this feature, "suddenly Linus couldn't cherry pick individual patches out of a larger set of changes." Jeff Garzik details this conceptual difference in his bk-kernel-howto document included with the kernel. Prior to using BitKeeper, Linus would review every single patch detail by detail, and he would pull out just the pieces that he wanted. But with BitKeeper, this became more difficult. Larry explained that this resulted in more trust being placed on some of the various subsystem maintainers, with Linus beginning to look at some patches category by category rather than line by line. Those maintainers that Linus felt he could trust more required less review, and at the same time those maintainers that Linus felt he could trust less received more review. Effectively, much of the effort involved in assuring high quality was delegated, and ultimately this led to doubling the pace of kernel development.

Free Versus Free
In spite of the increase in productivity, a vocal group continued to protest Linus' use of a tool that was not open source, nor "free as in freedom". Efforts to provide BitKeeper-like functionality in open source products began in earnest. This lead to more flame wars on the Linux Kernel Mailing List with Larry trying to explain that he was happy to let Linus and other developers use the product for kernel development, but not for reverse engineering. Most recently, two such reverse engineering efforts led BitMover to question the free portion of their business model. Worse, one of these efforts was inadvertandly funded by the OSDL, Linus Torvalds' place of employement.

Larry explained that a contracter still under pay from OSDL for an unrelated project was also actively working on reverse engineering the BitKeeper protocol. Discussion began about five weeks ago to try and resolve the situation, getting so far as to obtain a verbal agreement that the individual would stop his efforts. After that time, however, it turned out that the reverse engineering effort had continued. Although OSDL wasn't directly paying for the reverse engineering effort, they were still employing someone who was actively developing a competing product, something the free BitKeeper license doesn't allow. Larry added, "OSDL had a chance to resolve this issue, but instead shrugged their shoulders and said 'it's not my problem'". It became the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Weighing this and earlier transgressions against the $500,000 dollars a year BitMover spends developing and supporting the free BitKeeper tool, the tough decision was made to phase out support and availability of their free product.

What Went Wrong
Discussing what led to this decision, Larry explained, "this is really an open source community problem and I have to say that the open source community couldn't have failed more than they have." He pointed out that as a long-time open source fanatic and the CEO of BitMover, "we represent as open-source friendly a commercial organization as you are *ever* going to see", cautioning that the events that have caused BitMover to phase out its free product could also result in other companies never even bothering to make products available on Linux. "back at Sun they had a saying 'it's the apps, stupid'. Which meant that all the 'my OS is better than your OS' rhetoric was nothing compared to having more applications on your platform than the other guy's platform. That's true for Linux as well and the point is that no company is going to port their applications to a platform who's stated goal and track record is to reverse engineer everything they find useful. At some point the open source world needs to either decide they'll tolerate commercial software and respect the fact that commercial companies are entitled to make money off their efforts or step up and take on the challenge of providing open source versions of *every* application."

He continued, "our position is that we don't think we have any chance of changing how the 'open source community' behaves. Unlike the Marine corp, the open source community is more than willing to ignore their bad apples as 'not my problem' (the Marine corp punishes the group for the behavior of the bad apples, pretty soon there are no bad apples). Maybe that will get fixed some day but until then we have to do what makes sense for our business and letting the open source guys put us out of business doesn't make sense."

Larry also noted that some people could view the end of a free BitKeeper product as a failure, but that this wasn't the case. Linus pointed out that, "three years of using BitKeeper has made some profound improvements to the workflow", describing how instead of focusing on patch by patch changes he's now able to work with other trusted developers at a higher and more efficient level.

The decision was not an easy one. "I was trying to help and it has been heartbreaking to watch parts of the community lash back at me because I couldn't figure out a politically correct way to help," Larry explained. "You have no idea how miserable that has been."

What Next
Over the next three months, BitMover intends to phase out the free BitKeeper product. Some money has been set aside to provide commercial licenses for certain kernel developers, however Linus Torvalds is not one of them. Larry suggested, "if Linus and Andrew and the others moved elsewhere, we'd glady comp them licenses", referring to their current employment with OSDL.

Beyond this, it has become obvious to all involved that BitMover no longer gains back what it spends supporting the free product. In the beginning the exchange of the service and product for marketing gains and bug reports was enough. Now that this is no longer true, Linus, not interested in a one sided deal even when he's on the winning side, decided for this and other reasons to migrate away from BitKeeper and to begin looking for an alternative.

Larry noted that the kernel tree will continue to be tracked by BitKeeper, as many kernel developers have been commercially licensing the product for that purpose. This includes employees of many large companies who actively contribute to Linux development such as IBM, Intel, HP, Nokia and Sun as well as many smaller companies.

As for what tool will replace BitKeeper to handle Linux kernel development, no decision has been made yet. Several tools have been tested, but nothing currently has been selected, as so far nothing offers sufficient performance and functionality. Larry noted that Linus tried monotone, but a simple import of flat files without versioning information took 2 hours, far too slow. The same was true for Darcs. Eventually however, some tool will be selected and further developed to meet the needs of the kernel developers.

Larry pointed out that such a tool would only need to run on Linux, having no need to support other platforms such as Solaris or Windows, and thus could take advantage of certain Linux-specific features allowing it to perform "blindingly fast". In fact, Linus has already begun working on a simplistic tool that takes advantage of Linux performance features. This effort has been aided by Larry, who added that it was also good for BitMover, as a Linux-only tool would not be competition to BitKeeper, whose largest market is on Windows.

BitKeeper versus the Open Source Replacement
By phasing out the free BitKeeper product, it is guaranteed that some other project is going to step forward to take its place as the version control system used by the Linux kernel. When asked if he was concerned about this resulting in the creation of a project that ultimately competes with BitKeeper, Larry replied, "yes, of course. We'd be idiots to not be." However, he then went on to point out some reasons that this was unlikely. In maintaining two products, he was suprised to learn that the needs of the open source community was much different than the needs of the commercial community. Certainly there was some overlap, but they found that the two communities were pushing them in different directions.

A specific example is in binary managment. There are not many binary files in the Linux kernel distribution, and what few there are don't get frequently modified. "For example", Larry said, "there may be a jpeg image which is a logo, and it may be updated once every year or so, but there's not a great need for complicated binary managment." Conversely, in the commercial community binary managment is critical. For example, someone may be tracking a 1 MB word document that goes through hundreds of revisions resulting in consuming 1 GB of space. BitKeeper is focused on improving this functionality as it is common for commercial uses, whereas an open source solution concerned with the Linux kernel wouldn't have such a need.

Furthermore, Larry pointed out that there is no "killer feature" that makes BitKeeper such a great tool. Instead, it is a collection of thousands of little features altogether which make it so powerful. He added that he hopes an open source solution will become viable soon, as until that happens features will inadvertantly be passed from commercial BitKeeper users to the open source community. Already, in the discussions about what will be needed to replace BitKeeper, the wishlists come straight out of BitKeeper's feature set.

Last Free BitKeeper Release
In a post to the Linux Kernel mailing list in February of 2005, Larry discussed a 16 bit limitation of the existing free product [story]. With nearly 64,000 changesets in the mainline kernel tree, future development will quickly exceed this limitation. For that reason, it is likely that BitMover will provide one final release of its free BitKeeper product, allowing kernel developers a graceful transition. By the end of July, the goal is to have completed the migration, thereby terminating the free product and focusing fully on the commercial product.

As the two versions of the product tended to have greatly divergent requirements, the decision to drop the free product will benefit users of the commercial product. "On a scale of one to ten", Larry explained, "I think we're a four. Of course all the other products out there are a three or less, but they don't realize it. We have a roadmap of features that will take us to maybe eight out of ten. Those will keep us busy for the next three to five years and we're very excited to be working on those problems."

Summary:
The three years that Linux was under BitKeeper source control were largely beneficial to the Linux kernel development process. It taught good source control habits, and offered kernel developers a more efficient way to manage distributed development.

The debate regarding "Free as in Freedom" versus "Free as in Free Beer" is far from over, and we are certain to see lengthy debates on the Linux Kernel Mailing List as kernel developers migrate away from BitKeeper. There is no obvious replacement today, but it is only a matter of time until a project steps forward to satisfy the needs of kernel developers. Now that the kernel has been maintained under a quality source control product, it is quite likely that it will remain so, inventing a solution if necessary, for as Plato so aptly said, "necessity is the mother of invention."


Translations:

link to the mail thread

Kedar Sovani
on
April 5, 2005 - 11:47pm

Is there a mail thread associated with the discussion ? Could you please give a hyperlink to the thread.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 8:40am

the site not valid

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 23, 2008 - 2:26pm

the your site not open.

Linus' dependence has been on

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 5, 2005 - 11:51pm

Linus' dependence has been on the charity and `well-meaning' of the BitMover corporation. It no longer became financial viable. The `straw that broke the camel's back' looks like a ruse to continue appearing friendly to the community while focusing on more profitable venues: a corporation, above all, exists to benefit its shareholders (tin hat off). The tide changing comes as no surprise.

It does, however, come at a poor time. By how much will changing the versioning model effect development? The speed of Linux's development is integral to its success in the market. Thusfar the pace has justified Linus' choice in bk; several years down the line (hypothesis) a more mature, delicate development pace may have naturally brought about questions of moving toward a free|speech solution. It seems that time has appeared and appeared suddenly. While it's a fretful scenario, it has the opportunity to (1) spur quick development on another (or continuation thereof) OSS versioning system (arch? subv? darcs?), (2) improve the free-ness of the overall development process and (3) fill in the blank. Three months.

It looks like BitMover have w

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 1:40am

It looks like BitMover have weighed up the pros & cons and decided that now that they have established their product partially (largely?) through their connection with Linux it is no longer cost effective to help the community.

This really does highlight why its dangerous to use non-free software - you are totally at the mercy of the company licensing the product; if the source was available at least the kernel hackers (or someone else) could have forked the product and concentrated on features for FOSS developers.

Rant aside, I am sure that this will be the motivation required for a lot of improvements to be made to existing free source control systems.

who is to blame here?

Janne (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 2:11am

"It looks like BitMover have weighed up the pros & cons and decided that now that they have established their product partially (largely?) through their connection with Linux it is no longer cost effective to help the community."

Or maybe they decided that it's not worth it trying to work with people who seem to hate their guts and who are constantly trying to undermine them?

Seriously, had Bitmover made their product a 100% commercial product, no-one would have complained one bit. But since they made it available to the Kernel-hackers for free, while being commercial to others, everyone whined. And they then proceeded to try to reverse-engineer and undermine them.

Seriously: had everyone just played ball, nothing would have happened. Everyone would have used Bitkeeper just fine. Bu no, people started whining about a gift they were given and started causing problems. It seems to me that McVoy did his best to try to satisfy everyone, but in vain.

I guess some people think that "this is the risk of using non-free (as in speech) system!". But you could also say that nothing would have happened if everyone would just have STFU. It's not like you had to sell your first-born child to use BK.

really, BK seems like a kick-ass product. And it was obviously the best tool for the job. And it was given to the kernel-guys for free. Now, thanks to constant whining and undermining by some people, they decided it was not worth it.

If I gave something to someone, and all I received in return was hatred, whining, undermining and the like, I know that I wouldn't be that enthusiastic in working with those people. And could you really blame me?

Who is to blame here? The folks who gave the tool, or the ones who whined about the tool? Why is McVoy "evil" or something because he created a commercial tool that kicked ass, and decided to give it to the kernel-hackers for free? I would have thanked him for it, instead of whining about it.

If I gave something to someon

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 2:35am

If I gave something to someone, and all I received in return was hatred, whining, undermining and the like, I know that I wouldn't be that enthusiastic in working with those people. And could you really blame me?

The problem here is, he gave it to them on terms some of them were bound to dislike, so he should have been prepared to deal with the reactions.

But...

Janne (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 3:14am

Didn't he also provide BK-CVS-gateway for those who didn't want to use BK, and wanted to use CVS instead? So why not simply use CVS instead of trying to undermine BK? If they disliked BK or it's license, they had the option of not using it.

Another but...

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 4:20am

Most of them didn't like the fact that he could do what he did, at any time that suited him.

Whether he did it because of someone apparently abusing it or not is not the point.

BK-CVS or no BK-CVS, the fundamental problem with this is that you have no control over the software, you don't even have any control over your data, you play by other people's rules, and those are people who don't have your interest in mind foremost, but money.

You are in a bad position to find yourself relying on this type of software - especially when you aren't paying money for it.

I just realized that Open Sou

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 8:27am

I just realized that Open Source / Free Software is going to be an even bigger revolution in computer science that I previously thought. Reading through these messages and seeing how working in os/fs projects affects developer's minds, makes me realize that Linux is not a normal Operating System. There will be no Photoshop for Linux, nor Microsoft Word. And that is not a weakness, that's a strength. Because I've just realized that this movement (I think I can call it that) is going to build each and every tool they need and eventually completely replace proprietary software. No wonder the patent laws are being so forced upon the E.U., they know they're in deep shit, and their only escape is by prohibiting us from reimplementing their ideas in os/fs.

Wrong

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 8:38am

There could be Photoshop or Word. They could release it for Linux as a proprietary application and say so up front. There can also be free software that says so up front.

This whole BitKeeper mess has been a bait and switch. It was free until the creator felt threatened by competition, and then the free version was pulled.

What would be the point?

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 12:44pm

There could be Photoshop or Word.

What would be the point of running Microsoft Word on Linux? Have you ever used OpenOffice? It replaces Microsoft Word for 99% of uses right now, and it's developing faster.

OpenOffice isn't good enough yet

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 3:12pm

No it doesn't replace 99% of Word. there is still plenty lacking that makes it hard to get people to move.
besides which its different, and that can be enough for some people.
I have various clients, some who've moved to OpenOffice, some who won't yet for the above reasons, and some whom completely refuse because it isn't what they've invested peoples' time in learning little bits and pieces of over the years

And MS Office is more than just Word

For some significant things, OOo is better

Leon Brooks (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 3:22pm

There's lots of table stuff which is easy in OOWriter but impossible in MS-Word, and which gets even better in OOo 2.0. OOWriter also makes better HTML and spits out PDFs, which has got it through the door at many places I do server work for. OOCalc is still notably behind MS-Excel, but OOo also ships with a drawing tool absent from the MS-Office suite. The down-side in 2.0 for me is all of that extra Java making it even larger and heavier.

In summary, people looking for an exact MS-Office clone in OOo are going to be disappointed, but people interested in equivalent functionality or better are going to be pleased.

OOo vs MS-Office

Juergen (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 6:18pm

I use OOo at home and for what I need there it does the job. The tool I need most is Excel and in that area OOo is at least 5 years behind Excel in functionality.
Graphs: forget it........
So far I haven't found anything OOo would do really better then MS-Office and I am not looking for a clone, just same capabilities or better.....

Have you tried gnumeric?

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 10, 2005 - 12:04am

Have you tried gnumeric?

I have

Ustka (not verified)
on
August 28, 2005 - 7:20pm

I have tried gnumeric. I would rather recommend Open Office or Ooo. They are considerably more user friendly.

open office is quite

Bob leren (not verified)
on
January 26, 2008 - 5:01pm

open office is quite acceptable today. But google docs is improving too.

> This whole BitKeeper mess h

FattMattP
on
April 6, 2005 - 2:15pm

> This whole BitKeeper mess has been a bait and switch.

No it wasn't.

> It was free until the creator felt threatened by competition, and then the free version was pulled.

Wrong. The free version was pulled because people were not abiding by the license. If we expect people to abide by our licenses (GPL, BSD, etc) then we must respect other licenses or not use their software.

Wrong. The people who are rev

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 4:14pm

Wrong. The people who are reverse engineering BK are not the kernel developers that are bound by its license. Reverse engineering is a perfectly legal and healthy part of competition in a free market. How do you think SAMBA has gotten so good?

SAMBA has moved forward not d

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 9:26pm

SAMBA has moved forward not due to what you call a 'reverse engineering' but due to large-scale network analysis which is quite different to reverse engineering even by definitions in appropriate laws in many different countries around the world.

Analyzing the data flowing over a network is completely different to a reverse engineering and by equalizing it you're helping those who would like to outlaw both of them (and therefore cause some damage to the projects that use aforementioned techniques) as the latter happens to have a slightly more negative view associated. Please be careful in selecting your terminology.

It's reverse engineering

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 7, 2005 - 7:09am

Analyzing data flow on a network is an act of reverse engineering the protocol.

Yes and no

logicnazi
on
April 9, 2005 - 5:03pm

Yes, you are correct that in common parlance this is certainly reverse engineering. However, it is alot different from a legal standpoint. In one case you have purchased (and likely accepted the liscensing restrictions which ban reverse engineering) the product and are then actively taking it apart. In the other case you may not have purchased the product at all yourself and secondly you are simply passively observing the output of the program.

In short while one might reasonably think that the law allows liscensce agreements to restrict one's right to the former but making it illegal to think about what your program does is really over the line. After all packets aren't much different than display graphics and it would be way over the line to make it illegal to wonder how microsoft makes the windows move.

Still, you might think they could restrict ones ability to write similar software as part of the liscence agreement one accepts by clicking or whatever. However, most jurisdictions have severe restrictions on contracts which interfere with someone doing their job (not writing this sort of program) and likely would not find the liscensce agreement binding. If the people doing the network analysis had ever accepted it in the first place.

Get your facts please

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 9, 2005 - 6:03pm

And the person who has been "reverse engineering" bk did exactly what you describe as correct: network protocol and file format analysis. That person didn't have access to bk, didn't have to agree to the licence, etc... there is no difference here. It's just again and again larry trying to spread all the bullshit he can.

Where do you live?

no one (not verified)
on
April 18, 2005 - 5:03am

* logicnazi [2005-04-09 17:03]:
> In one case you have purchased (and likely accepted
> the liscensing restrictions which ban reverse
> engineering) the product and are then actively taking
> it apart.

You don't need a license or the funny terms in it to use a software a software. Using, modifying, reverse engineering, making backups of it is already allowed by the law. (Besides you live in a country where one does not want to live ...)

All you need is to legally own the software.

All a license can do, is to allow you things, which are normally not allowed, e.g. redistribution or even redistribution of modified versions or selling copies of it.

A license cannot forbid you things, you're allowed to. (Maybe a contract you negotiated personally with the software vendor can, IANAL, but you'd be stupid to do such a thing, wouldn't you?)

In a reasonable legislation a vendor or software author cannot even put itself out of the noose of warranty and let you standing in the rain. Even if you've agreed to such hanky-panky.

You might be interested in reading this: http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html or the copyright laws (and other applicable laws) of your country and you'll get a much more relaxed view on the whole topic. What most people don't want to realize: it really is there for mutual balance.

Where do you live?

no one (not verified)
on
April 18, 2005 - 5:06am

* logicnazi [2005-04-09 17:03]:
> In one case you have purchased (and likely accepted
> the liscensing restrictions which ban reverse
> engineering) the product and are then actively taking
> it apart.

You don't need a license or the funny terms in it to use a software a software. Using, modifying, reverse engineering, making backups of it is already allowed by the law. (Besides you live in a country where one does not want to live ...)

All you need is to legally own the software.

All a license can do, is to allow you things, which are normally not allowed, e.g. redistribution or even redistribution of modified versions or selling copies of it.

A license cannot forbid you things, you're allowed to. (Maybe a contract you negotiated personally with the software vendor can, IANAL, but you'd be stupid to do such a thing, wouldn't you?)

In a reasonable legislation a vendor or software author cannot even put itself out of the noose of warranty and let you standing in the rain. Even if you've agreed to such hanky-panky.

You might be interested in reading this: http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html or the copyright laws (and other applicable laws) of your country and you'll get a much more relaxed view on the whole topic. What most people don't want to realize: it really is there for mutual balance.

WRONG. This wasn't bait and

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 8, 2005 - 8:10am

WRONG. This wasn't bait and switch. Larry said up front "I'll provide a free version as long as you let me try to make some money (i.e., don't reverse engineer this)." Linus (and Linux) got a lot of functionality from it and was able to develop more rapidly. Larry got good feedback on how to improve his product (and the free version) version. EVERYBODY profitted. Life was good (except for the fanatics).

Then somebody decides, either to get Larry to stop providing the free version because of some grudge or political agenda, or just to do it, to start reverse-engineering it. Larry says "Well, it was good while it lasted, but now people are starting to do what I asked them not to do, so I'm going to pull the free version."

Who's the villian here, the person that stated his conditions up front, or the person(s) that came along and torpedoed the whole deal for EVERYONE?

Get some history lessons

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 9, 2005 - 6:04pm

You get all the facts wrong, or maybe are you larry writing under a different name ? :)

efforts to clone/beat bitkeep

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 10, 2005 - 9:10am

efforts to clone/beat bitkeeper was here since the very beginning, now suddenly it's such a problem .... yeah right, partialy probably yes, but main reason being concentrating on corporate 'needs', that's it.

He kept changing the license.

cheesybagel (not verified)
on
April 10, 2005 - 9:13pm

He kept changing the license. Besides, even Microsoft does not have insane license terms like that you cannot use their products if you make competitor products. Imagine if they forbid a WordPerfect developer from using Word.

Larry is a monopolist control freak and there is nothing else to say about him.

Go read the article about thi

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 11, 2005 - 9:42am

Go read the article about this on NewsForge. You might learn something.

I did learn something. That L

cheesybagel (not verified)
on
April 12, 2005 - 5:24pm

I did learn something. That Larry is a two-faced control freak. That he used the kernel developers for advertising and bug testing, and planned to dump them once he had enough money from the commercial side. He kept making more excuses, so many excuses eventually his license terms for the "free" license (which mind you was not free since he got something very valuable in return) were breached.

Tell me, if it wasn't for Linus's free advertising, would you even have heard of his business?

Adobe had better hurry if they want to have a market left

Leon Brooks (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 3:33pm

The GIMP needs only n-deep colours in an arbitrary number of channels (hard, but much of the framework is now in place) and an interface makeover (easier, like GimpShop only more extensive) and it'll out-feature PS pretty much across the board - e.g. 80-bit CMYKA or RGEBK colour; or even 160-bit, "if you want a Beowulf cluster of those".

[ Why on earth would you want 160-bit colour? Dynamic range, my friend, the ability to enhance and work on "invisibly" small colour differences. Some people might also like six colour channels plus black and alpha to be able to work on seven-colour printer output directly. ]

Not only would Adobe find it much harder to start a new market against capability like that, but a suitably empowered and UI-compatible GIMP would start making serious inroads into their existing market.

Yeah. But it's not Photosh

Anonymous (not verified)
on
June 15, 2006 - 2:37pm

Yeah.

But it's not Photoshop. There are people out there who have been using Photoshop for 20 years and have the keyboard commands memorized. What the fixation with replacing Photoshop is, I'll never know. But no matter how good the GIMP gets, it will never replace Photoshop.

re: I just realized that Open Source...

Sean J (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 11:38am

Hah! I totally agree, there. If developers and zealots can stop worrying about getting more proprietary software on board and focus on revolutionizing on their own steam, I also believe that free software will overcome the rest.

Wrong

renoX
on
April 6, 2005 - 12:06pm

At work I'm using Linux and I am using also some commercial applications on top: VMWare, cross-over, MS Office, clearcase, a framework, etc..

Clearly there is a room for commercial software on open-source OS.

Maybe in the future all those commercial software will be replaced by open-source app, we'll see but I kind of doubt that for example MS Office is going to die anytime soon!

Use the proper names please.

cheesybagel (not verified)
on
April 10, 2005 - 9:19pm

Use the proper names please. There is commercial OSS like RedHat Enterprise Linux. You mean proprietary. Of course there is space. OSS may give them competition, but that isn't anything they didn't get from their competitors in the proprietary segment as well.

Wake up!

Jakub Hegenbart (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 3:04pm

Oh, you''ve finally woken up :)

It's called Free Software Movement and it dates back to 1983-1984 :)))))))))

That's the whole point of the

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 9, 2005 - 1:39pm

That's the whole point of the GNU project since 1984.

and how many money earned goo

website templates (not verified)
on
November 16, 2005 - 5:19am

and how many money earned google with their adsense programm and other cash flow cows? i get the feeling thats google are very poor *g* but... Nice to know ;)

they disliked BK or it's lice

cramer (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 5:21pm
    they disliked BK or it's license, they had the option of not using it.

If only it were that simple. See, there are certain assholes in the world that are hell-bent on making sure everyone does things they way they want. Those few that dislike the BK/Free license or are unable to abide by the terms (i.e. SCM developers), are dictating to everyone else that they cannot use it either.

By my counts, there are hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of happy BK/Free users and less than 100 jihadists against it's use.

Re: they disliked BK or it's lice

Andrew Wade (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 9:35pm

See, there are certain assholes in the world that are hell-bent on making sure everyone does things they way they want.

Yes, yes there are.

Those few that dislike the BK/Free license or are unable to abide by the terms (i.e. SCM developers), are dictating to everyone else that they cannot use it either.

Hang on now: there is a great distance between disliking the license, and trying to dictate to people what licenses they can use.

By my counts, there are hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of happy BK/Free users and less than 100 jihadists against it's use.

What about the happy BK/Free non-users? I don't like the license, ergo I don't use BK. But you don't see me going on any "holy wars" against the use of the license. Heck, this is the first time I've mentioned the matter. How many more of us have passed below your radar?

Nobody has been dictating anything

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 9, 2005 - 6:10pm

You must awake every morning in the fear of some jihadist conspiracy aimed at preventing you from using commercial software, what a poor life my friend !

Nobody has been dictating anything and the few people who have voiced loudly that kind of thing had pretty much 0 impact on the actual people who _do_ the work, who _write_ the code, so in the end, to the people who matter.

It is a fact however, that BitMover has been quite dishonest in its handling of the whole bk licence and situation, changing the terms as it suited them, claiming ownership far beyond they deserve (they claim they own the actual kernel tree metadata for example), plus all sort of funny abuse around the free licence (including forbidding any user of the free licence from working on any SCM product for up to 1 years after stopping use of bk, come on, that is even illegal in most countries !)

It's not about biggotry here. It's about the very simple fact that bk cannot be used by a whole range of people, and that makes things difficult to access the (back then growing) number of open source projects that are distributed with it (and not all of them have a bkcvs gateway, and the bkcvs gateway doesn't provide you with the complete revision control history graph anyway). It's for these reasons and only these reasons, that somebody decided to try to reverse engineer the network protocol and file format in order to provide people with a tool allowing them to access the projects since bitmover wouldn't allow it if they decided that for some reason you don't fit in their (narrower everyday) definition of people who could use the free version.

Broke license agreement

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 11:22am

Have you forgotten that the reason Bitmover terminated support, was due to the fact that OSDL was working on reverse engineering the product. That was a provision in the license.

Sorry, this is just very disheartening.

Wrong. OSDL hired a guy who w

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 12:36pm

Wrong. OSDL hired a guy who was - as one of his other, not OSDL related projects - working on reverse engineering bitkeeper. The guy probably never used bitkeeper in his OSDL work, and as such never agreed to the bitkeeper license. And OSDL has no say about what other projects a contractor is working on.

This is exactly the point tha

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 4:19pm

This is exactly the point that the BK guys don't want you to get.

1) Reverse engineering is perfectly legal

2) The person who is reverse engineering BK never agreed to the BK license and is therefor not bound to the 'no reverse engineering' terms

Then BitMover should be suing

cramer (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 5:16pm

Then BitMover should be suing OSDL and the unnamed contractor.

Taking your toys and going home is just childish. There are a great many happy users of BK/Free and a very small number of assholes constantly trying to keep anyone from using BK.

BitNover can't sue OSDL or the developer

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 7, 2005 - 7:07am

BitNover (because "B i t M o v e r" without the spaces is a registered trademark and I don't want to offend Larry) can't sue OSDL, because OSDL doesn't reverse engineer BitLeeper.

And not the developer, since he might not have agreed to the BitLeeper license in the first place (I'm quoting).

Anyway, I'm wondering if Larry is posting with different nicks... The pro-BitLeeper comments sound too harsh, IMHO.

Of course

Anonymous (not verified)
on
April 9, 2005 - 7:39am

Of couse Larry could not, so he pulls the plugin on Linux kernel using BitKeeper by excersing the contract which he offered to Linux kernel developers.

And those folks should STFU.

Scott Lockwood (not verified)
on
April 6, 2005 - 11:23am

The little whiney bitches should either publish some code for something better, or STFU! There is NO WAY you can convince me that giving someone something FOR FREE is a liscense to dump hatred and bulls**t on Larry and crew who have done an EXCELLENT job of helping Linux. This whole thing is just really F***ed up.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.