Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

1. Spirit Tracks is the best game and I will fight you over this
2. Agreed, you don't need the triforce in every game. Hell, the whole point about the games post WW is that the tri-force isn't as important anyways.

 

Oh yea, that's an annoying and disingenuous quote.

I'd definitely be stoked if Link was female in the next Zelda game.

 

grrrrr

 

On the topic of female Link... I am not satisfied with whatever Linkle is suppose to be. I don't want a girly girl female Link, I want a strong and determined one. Preferably a female Link that's born from the Gerudos.

 

Awakening released with a bunch of new accessibility features right as the 3DS was hitting its stride after an off year but nah, totally and solely the waifus.
It actually kinda bothers me how prevalent the waifu explanation is in the community. It's an automatic go-to for so many people.

Also, LA is the best Zelda.

 

Clearly there's only one way to settle this.

PISTOLS AT DAWN!

AND AT DUSK!

But yeah, the sheer belief that the Otaku crowd is somehow millions strong when everything suggests otherwise keeps throwing me off.

 

Sounds like you wanna female ganon.

Actually, it sounds like you want a Sheikah Zelda game that take place during the time that Link was asleep in OOT.

I also want that.

Made by Platinum.

 

A woman reincarnation of Ganon fighting a big bad alongside Link and Zelda would be freakin' amazing.

 

God, I hate that stuff so much. Awakening released at the start of the 3DS's life as you say, was well marketed, had tons of new accessibility features and stuff, and was the first Fire Emblem game on the 3DS. Echoes, on the other hand, came out not only after Awakening, not only after Fates, but also competing with two other Fire Emblem titles in the same year like Heroes and Warriors. And it's essentially a remake of one of the less popular entries in the franchise, Gaiden. But could it be it coming out at the end of the 3DS's life instead of near it's peak, Fire Emblem exhaustion (and those not exhausted getting their fix from Heroes/Warriors), and it being a remake of a less popular entry have anything to do with its comparative sales? Nah, it absolutely, positively, has to be the waifus that are dictating how much each title sells and nothing else, because reasons. *Sigh.*

 

Well, I'm playing Horizon now. Your move Nintendo.

(and don't tell me Metroid folks, that thing is barely an IP)

 

To be fair, Metroid is getting a bit of a revival. Now let’s see if they stick the landing this time.

But yeah, I want another female lead Nintendo game that isn’t Style Savvy.

 

See, there's no actual demonstrable way to determine just what aspect of Awakening saved FE. Comparing it to other otaku-bait games can give us ideas, but no accurate conclusions. Other games have shown us that otaku-bait can pierce the mainstream given the right context as we've seen this year.

It could be the streamlined gameplay and added options to accommodate other styles of play. It could also be the otaku-pandering elements, or rather the shipping that can peak out of the 2 AM otaku niche. It could even be the more modern anime aesthetic. I'm going to bet it's a combination of all 3. Shipping is REALLY big in fan circles and that goes beyond the otaku sphere. Not just waifus, but husbandos too. That could have ultimately been the driving force behind the increased interest with the streamlined gameplay taking a secondary role. Or it could have been the other way around. There's no way to know for sure without some kind of magical polling system.

 

Good point.

5) That's on KT, it's their character.

I think overall your points are just symptoms of climate changes, the brontosaurus that is Nintendo moving in the wind, making baby steps. There's no grand master plan.

No, that's just wrong, you can't make sweeping statements on the general quality of criticisms, maybe not even their quantity.

 

There's something to be said, though, about taking bad criticism into account. Even if you see it and decide it's not worth giving this specific instance a second thought, it confirms in your mind that people care about it. Then you decide whether or not you want to change.

That was kinda rambly, but I guess my point is, seeing criticism and saying "no" is still useful.

That said, ymmv on what constitutes good or bad criticism. Beyond obvious shit like death threats being terrible, beyond bad. But also not really criticism, heh.

 

It's strange how the focus of the Nintendo thread was on changing existing IPs rather than about creating new ones. Why is this always the case with representation? It clearly failed the comics industry.

 

As noted earlier in this topic, Marvel's attempts were half-assed with all the quality writers and artists for the most part going to the more traditional books, or too focused on taking an established character and changing them. That said, some characters were successful, such as Miles Morales and Ms. Marvel, likely because they had quality behind them (and in the latter case, picking up an abandoned mantle). I don't pay attention to DC much so I can't comment on that end of things.

It's also not as if Nintendo's IPs have super-entrenched character identities outside of Mario. You could easily have a new Link be a girl; have Samus not be a busty blonde with a perfect but non-athletic body, or have her under-armor outfit not be super sexy; have more proactive women characters in Pokemon; and so on. Making Mario a girl or black on the other hand would be really out of the blue and weird, as compared to having a new Link not just be a pale-skinned dude, for instance.

Note I'm not saying any of these changes NEED to be made, just, it'd make a number of people happier, which is always a good thing.

 

The question I have with making link a girl (note i'm fine with the option choice ala pick your link) is if its a forced option to be a girl, what would it bring to the table since generally link's gender never has any weight what so ever in the story, like hell we could make link genderless in the future and nothing would be gained/loss. Maybe I'm just weird and dont see how making link a female would do much unless they made the gender important (Which would be odd in a LoZ game and i'd think nintendo would fuck it up somehow)

 

This argument that people keep making for some reason conveniently ignores when it does work.

For example, it worked pretty well when they reinvented the characters for the movies.

 

Hey, I'm all for enby Link myself. Or even making a Link with no canon gender, Japan media does that plenty enough, let the player decide in their head. Might make some dialogue a bit hard but it's doable.

 

What does forcing link to be a boy bring to the table? What part of most of the stories of the Zelda games benefits from link being a boy?

It is exactly as you say. It never matters.

So if it never matters, but still provides some variety, however shallow, isn't that fine?

Of course there's also the angle that more badass woman characters is a good thing in this world where that's still a rarity compared to more problematic portrayals.

(I'd be perfectly fine with link being completely genderless, officially speaking, tbh.)

 

Still waiting for my Linkle spinoff

 

But what if link was a big blonde rockman dude. ):

Fuck hylians team gorons!!!!!

 

Meanwhile I'm hoping and praying we get a stealth-action spinoff starring Impa.
It'll never happen, but I can dream.

 

I mean it being window dressing is fine too. As you said, there's no weight put into Link being a boy either. It would just be there for variety and not much else. There's already variety in Link personalities, with Wind Waker/Phantom Pain Link implied to be very talkative, Skyward Sword Link being more of a romantic, or BOTW Link being a fucking insane Bear Grylls-like person. No reason that can't extend to gender as well. Being genderless/intersex/trans could work as well, though I feel like that would be weird to have without it being a story focus, at least not until those groups have enough visibility to the point no one thinks anything of it.

 

Well, that bit of characterization kind of went out the window...

 

Yes! And it shouldn't just be a "you're link but a girl". Like, actually put some effort at making her different like maybe have her actually be diplomatic. Have actual voice acting for the main character since we aren't playing is eternally mute Link.

 

I guess I'll toss in my opinion here since it dissents a bit. I don't want a female Link. I don't like characters that just flip a gender switch and suddenly "female version of male character". Link is an established and iconic character and I don't need or particularly want him to be anything else. I don't really need Zelda to replace him either, though I'd love to see a game that uses them as playable co-stars (got the perfect premise too). Or a game where Zelda is not playable but does not need to be rescued. There are plenty of things a non playable character can do that has them active and helping instead of needing help. I want to see the Zelda games continue to improve, but I do not need or want them to replace their main characters. I happen to like Link as he is. I'd rather see Nintendo continue to diversify their IP portfolio and have that include many more female characters who are uniquely themselves, and not "versions" of established characters. All told, I'm pretty happy with Nintendo's games. Only Fire Emblem and now Xenoblade are on my shit lists (and Metroid at one point but Returns was good stuff and hopefully Prime 4 will continue the trajectory).

 

I forgot she had a naginata in HW. I love the naginata. It's so bad.
Yes. Naginata warrior Impa charging headlong into battle and skewering pig Ganon in the head. (Okay, you can technically do that in HW already but once isn't enough!!)

 

Cindy in FFXV was one of the worst character design I've ever seen in a while. Some developers need to be more mature.

 

I'd like to see the series do more with Zelda, but having her playable instead of Link but existing in the same sort of game feels like the gender flip thing, just with the lead roles. But again, having both be playable would be great. In Skyward Sword, Zelda had her own adventure. It was fun seeing it during the end credits, but it would have been better to play it. Other than that, I like her in spin offs like Hyrule Warriors, and very much want a Hyrule Warriors 2 (Fire Emblem Warriors was very much a disappointment to me). Same goes for Impa: one of my favorites to play as. I want a HW2 based entirely on BotW. Also playable Kass. I'm sure he could hit things with that accordion.

 

I'd say they did it because they wanted to sell merch, but I dont think they have any merch of her... so it fits the billing i have with FF having shit designs about 90% of the time (10% being rare and mostly Tactics and assuming i'm missing good designs from other side games.) Like I appreciate cheesecake, but damn was FFXV not the game i wanted it from. (at least give me something classy like quistis or beatrix)

 

Yay gorons! But as a thoroughly traumatised child who imprinted heavily on animals, I'm more Team Rito myself. Even Team Kass as he's a delightful family man. It's so hard to come across games featuring non-humanoid races, these days. That's why I was excited about XBC2 and its talking tiger with an accent that lovely... Right up until they killed it for me with all the rampant perviness.

I'm so completely starved for heartfelt, caring stories involving non-humanoids I'll take almost anything at this point. I have no shame. But I do have standards, and empathy. Why must it all be marred by prejudice and perviness? Also, why must so many awesome-looking non-humanoids often be "RAR EVIL BEAST"?

Because denoting good/evil by appearance and species most certainly doesn't cement toxic ideas in the minds of those playing or anything. I knoooow its weird but fantasy prejudice of species/hide colour bugs me. Reminds me of the real deal. And it means I'll never get that game with a story about an intricate, lovingly portrayed and believable gay relationship between an old, pudgy gnoll and a giant transgender balrog.

I'm probably saying the things out loud again that should stay in my head. Ah well.

That's why BotW is my favourite, anyway. Sorry Xas. I was just so mesmerised by the story of Kass that I lost all interest in my other quests. I actually sought out the Rito village with only four hearts to my name thanks to this. I still go to the Rito village to hang out and chill because its lovely. BotW, a game with a somewhat heartfelt story about non-humanoids that isn't ruined by sexism, racism, predatory LGBTQ stuff, or worse. Thanks, Ninty.

It's kind of weird not always being able to relate to your own species as much as you'd like, feeling out of place, alien, and awkward. Similarly preoccupied with dysmorphic notions regarding self-representation which makes it all the trickier. It's weird as some may label this furry but it was never especially sexual for me. I'm not innately a sexual person, that's complicated. It's more an exploration of a more true-to-self identity. Therian maybe? Dunno, seems rather spiritual.

You seem like a good bunch of kids. I worry I'll regret baring my soul but there it is. Probably seems like quite the mental issue, give it a hundred years though and it might be at where transgemder is now. That'll be interesting.

Sooooooo...

Team Rito for me, then. I need more of these Rito folks in my life.

And I would very much welcome a stocky, buff Rito woman (owl?) and all the flight mechanics that might imply! Especially if it wasn't half-baked and aerial aceobatics and tactical maneouvres were possible! Gannon had best have an air fleet! It'd be so fun swooping around enemy airships and master sword-zapping at the blinky weak spots.

That'd be rad.

...

Sorry about all that.

Random P.S. Robbie is totes Kass's musical mentor.

 

Maybe you're right. I shouldn't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance ... or however the saying goes. And ignorance is still a good answer to my question of why none of these casually enraged fans ever take a look back at these past fights they lost, realize the outcome didn't hurt them at all but allowed them to share the game they love with more people and, going forward, care as little for the next proposed progressive change as they do now about the progressive changes that've already been made.

And this is why I still tend to want to attribute it to malice. We really don't get enough examples of people openly changing their view, adjusting their opinion or at least engaging the opposite side's arguments. If it wasn't mostly intentional ignorance at work, I'd expect to see more people mellow out over time as video games acknowledge a wider range of human experience and yet the video games they like continue to get made.

I didn't call Anouma or any other developer stupid and I didn't call Nintendo fans manchildren, rather I picked out a specific subset of the fanbase.

Now if you want to debate honestly about what gets you where: I'm not sure that posts like mine get us nowhere, but I know your six steps don't get us to playable Zelda.

Zelda getting a bigger role doesn't necessarily lead to her getting the main role, especially when Anouma is on record as saying he wouldn't know what to do with Link if Zelda was the hero because that's not how the Triforce works. As a silent protagonist Link can't have much character development so whenver the devs want to have more of a story or an arc of personal growth for a character they look towards Zelda or a similar Princess stand-in like Midna.

With how androgynous Link already is, you could have the game never specify our hero of time's gender all all and just let the player decide whether his or her Link is a boy or a girl. It'd be a fun challenge, and not impossible thanks to Link's silent protagonist status, but much harder to keep up in preview and release and post-launch press coverage than in in-game writing.

 

This just reaffirms - to me, at least - that there's both a dearth of decent writers in the games industry, and a genuine lack of appreciation for the skills of a decent writer, period. I mean, as a writer with a £20,000 debt to studying "the craft", I'm obviously a little biased, but dear gods the average level of storytelling in video games is appalling!

You know that Zelda quote is especially bad when the 80s cartoon series depicted a competent Zelda more often than the video games...

 

The series is already called the Legend of Zelda, so why not give her the starring role from time to time?

That's because the counter argument stems from a position of conservatism. People only really care about defending the status quo, so the discussion will always fall back onto existing franchises. Even if the original argument was talking about new franchises, people aren't all that interested in them, so it'll still gravitate back to Zelda and Metroid and so on.

Oh no, it's definitely a matter of malice. It's just malice directed against people who say things that break the status quo. But if it's the creators making changes, then that becomes the new status quo and the new thing to defend. The only time this changes is when the new thing is obviously terrible, like Other M.

That was a really dumb quote from Anouma because we already knew that they aren't confined by the Zelda mythology to begin with.

 

Could you imagine if Samus looked like this again?

I can just imagine the outrage.

 

Why though? Because it's not practical mechanic gear?

FFXV had plenty of non sexualized female designs so if the creators wanted one or two designs for the sake of being sexy, that seems reasonable? Especially if they are honest about it, not sure I've seen a statement on Cindy though?

Everyone seemed OK (and rightfully so) with Yoko taros explanation for 2b.

I hated the Kojima explanation for quiet even though I loved the end result

 

Ya

This didn't help either:

Actually not everyone was okay with that, but yes, his blunt honesty did come off well in comparison to stuff like Kojima's statements regarding Quiet.

 

Yeah I don't get it either

Is it more important to reinvent halo with a female master chief than to launch a whole new IP starring a female MC like horizon zero dawn?

I don't like rebooting things in general to be honest, you are going to alienate fans in some way

isn't it win win to instead put out equal amounts of ips that can represent all genres and races instead of redoing existing ips and changing them?

Why alienate anyone when you can add more options?

 

In regards to practical mechanics outfit... I would understand that if gran Turismo 6 had female pit crew dressing and looking like that

But this is the same game where one of the 4 main party members runs around in a leather jacket half opened exposing pecs and stomach through battle. And cars fly, etc

They clearly took full creative liberty with the designs, and it's clearly a fantasy

I'm not saying your wrong to not like it, just don't see how practicality is relevant in that case?

 

Isn't every Link a different one? If so, there's no reason the character can't be a woman, since it's not the same Link every time.

 

For a long while Cindy was also the only other female character revealed for FFXV along with Luna. We initially erroneously thought she was the actual Cid of the game (she should have been, tbh. Cid's own existence is largely superfluous and we're fifteen sodding main entries into this franchise still without a female Cid) and a lot of us were beginning to fear that the game would have some kind of a women problem. Exhibit A was your standard priestess type character with the gorgeous golden locks, pure white dress, her hand over her chest and a look that screamed "I'm going to be a tragic sacrificial lamb somewhere" while Exhibit B was a Not!Cid that in my personal opinion looks like a juvenile design conceived merely to titillate. It wasn't exactly looking good on the women front, though I concede that Gladiolus's redesign was likely enacted for a similar reason.

Cindy being the first woman you see five minutes after booting up the game didn't help things either, especially when the first thing the camera did was follow her from the rear up before even revealing her face.

 

Regarding the other thread about Nintendo, I was kinda surprised by the vitriol the OP received. I mean, Samus' zero suit design is one of the worst offenders in terms of "great character undermined by stupid fan-servicey design" and I'm kinda perplexed that Nintendo (supposedly a content provider which would want to have the broadest audience possible, with a kid-friendly image to boot) doesn't bat an eye when one of its major heroine becomes hyper-sexualized.

 

I doubt there would be any outrage unless the game itself is bad. Nintendo fans don't share that many characteristics with the alt-right, so they are generally fine with change as long as it comes from Nintendo itself. Just look at how much opposition there was to Nintendo going mobile and how quickly it disappeared as soon as Pokemon Go showed up.

Quite simply, Nintendo (and Japan for that matter) doesn't consider the Zero Suit as sexualization.

 

Sorry, that's BOTW Zelda.

They totally can. They can make a retcon with Link being reborn with a different sex (since the status quo since 30 years ago is that he will reborn as a man with his basic characteristics). It's a matter if the Zelda Team wants or not, which right now is no and I think in the future too. Link is seen by Nintendo and it's developers as an established character just like Mario and because of it I don't see them ever changing him to a woman since they don't see him in that way.

At the same time, most of the buyers of Zelda don't want that change at all and I sense that Nintendo fears a backlash because of it (but I see most people buying it either way if they change it, with some trying to boycott because "SJW" like in Doctor Who). Nintendo fanbase is one of the more faithful in this industry so I can see this happening too.

 

They should just let you chose between male or female. I prefer a male protagonists cause I can identify a lot more. I guess women prefer female protagonists. That'd make everyone happy.

 

It matters in the same way that representation matters. Link is already an avatar for the player, might as well go all the way at this point since Zelda has a ton of fans who're women. It's literally a slight character model and voice change since he's intentionally androgynous.