You said that you agree that Karlin is generally not economistic in your comment #233.

Karlin cites authors like Murray and Morris to argue against China or Asia centrism.

I never said that you’re bad. I said that you seem to be characterized by intellectual dishonesty, sophistry, and histrionic narcissism based on your comments in this thread.

“So you agree that Karlin is not economistic, and yet you’ve been misrepresenting and persist in misrepresenting his views here and identifying him with Pomeranz, despite the fact that he has also cited other authors with different viewpoints and has made other comments in the thread.”

I never said that I agree that K. is not economistic. I said the reverse, that in his quotation taken from Pomeranz to refute something that I had claimed…(don’t recall now what) that the Pomeranz quotation was completely economistic, and moreover is part of the general attack on Euro-centrism, which means that it is white hating, Decolonializing trash without any redeeming significance.

The third wold has failedd to demonstrate its “humanity”, or any social and political institutions that are humane…”humanity” a term invvented by Whites, and unfortunately applying only to Whites as we see the inhumanity and Oriental Despotism everywhere that is not White.

What “other” comments of different authors are you talking about?

The whole argument for the “China Centrism” or Asian Centrism, is totally economistic in the literature that Duchesne cites, including Pomeranz.

Then you go into a riff on how bad a boy I am. if you are not totally insane, or a leftie, or a White Hater in general like the couple of rag-heads on this list, then you would cite my various statements that support your adjectives about me. Let the text speak for itself. There is no need for fancy trash talk.

Anyway, all K. would have to do is make a simple statement that he not now, nor has ever been a communist/third world/White hater. Unfortunately, in his opinions that I quoted several times, he has proven that he loves the Belarus communist dictator, loves some very strange mystical crap, and whatever else I said, I forget and would have to review the whole thread, which i am pretty much bored with.

Joe Webb

So you agree that Karlin is not economistic, and yet you’ve been misrepresenting and persist in misrepresenting his views here and identifying him with Pomeranz, despite the fact that he has also cited other authors with different viewpoints and has made other comments in the thread.

Sounds like your personal psychology is characterized by a strong dose of intellectual dishonesty, sophistry, and histrionic narcissism. Perhaps you got it from many thousands of years in a particular environment that rewards such things.

I suppose it is not unfair to suggest that despotism can more easily occur in a collectivist society.

I don’t know if that’s necessarily true. Despotism is a regression and corruption to the extent it resembles a tyranny rather than ruling with the “mandate of heaven”.

In more individualistic societies, you can get despotism as well when friction emerges between individuals and the “other” begins to be perceived as “less than”.

Democracies have their place and monarchies have their place. Sometimes a wise, benevolent dictator is the thing to have when the alternative is a corrupt, captured democracy (like we arguably have today).

I just got going on the Oriental Despotism theme because it is so important these days, and the personality types that engender it are another factor. It is not just intelligence.

I think the trouble is that you’re comparing societies coming out of the agricultural period, sclerotic with rot, with one at the cusp or into industrial era, booming with inspiration.

Then there is the Arab Spring which I immediately predicted would end in Winter…real fast, just a few months. I was correct. They are not capable of democracy (elections). They are only fit for oriental despotism.

Arguably, at this stage of their social development. But the future may be different.

LIberty, free speech, respect for the opposiltion…big accomplishments. White accomplishments.

Yes, true. But whites also stepped to the precipice at the other end before realizing that they had to make a u-turn.

Slavery, colonialism, imperialism, religious wars, racism, etc… on an order the world had never seen before. Now, just because you realize the gravity of the sin and codify your repentance, while that’s commendable, it’s not exactly genius and saintly.

Duchesne in the news in Canada.

Tear them down; We Need More Safe Spaces: Outrage Greets Posters Calling for a White Students’ Union
Paul Fromm Jan 4 at 7:33 PM
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Tear them down; We Need More Safe Spaces: Outrage Greets Posters Calling for a White Students’ Union
Sadly today, many North American university campuses are rigid indoctrination centres for intolerant political correctness. Free exchange of ideas? Forget about it. Last September, posters calling for a White Students’ Union went up at three Toronto area universities — York, the University of Toronto and Ryerson. Black students’ union, Jewish students’ union, Chinese students’ union — all exist and are okay. But a White Students’ Union brought denunciation, calls for repression, busybodies tearing down the signs and calls for “safe spaces” to protect our future leaders who are adults from thoughts that might upset them.

Frederick Fromm’s photo.
The Toronto Star (September 14, 2015) reported: “Posters promoting a White Students’ Union popped up Monday at three Toronto universities, and were taken down as fast as they went up. The posters show a stylized image of two white men in front of a Toronto cityscape, with the CN tower visible in the background. The words White Students’ Union” are scrawled along the bottom, with a website linking to a group called Students for Western Civilization. Fraser Macpherson, a student at Ryerson University, stumbled on one of the posters at 7:30 a.m. on Gould St. After Googling the website at the bottom of the poster, Macpherson said he took a photo of the flyer, posted it on Twitter, then tore it down and threw it in the trash. The experience has left him shocked. ‘I was not expecting to see something like this,’ he said.
The posters were also found on campus at York University and the University of Toronto. A spokesperson for York confirmed eight posters had been removed early Monday. Michael Forbes, a spokesperson for Ryerson, said there had been reports of the posters on campus, but said none had been recovered by security staff. Both universities condemned the posters, and said they violated the universities’ code of conduct.” And why would that be? “‘We do not condone this. We find it offensive,’ Forbes said.” Interestingly a Black Student Union is great but Whites organizing is “offensive.”
The group’s website ” included a link to an interview with Ricardo Duchesne, a professor at the University of New Brunswick who previously came under fire for arguing that Asian immigrants hurt Canada’s European character. Duchesne told the Star … he is not upset with being associated with the group, and criticized what he called a double standard in the media and academia against white and European pride. ‘There are black student unions, Asian student unions, but for some reason people react in a very negative way against a white student union. They assume that it is racist, that there’s something inherently wrong with it,’ Duchesne said.”

Free Speech? Not for White folks. The “collectivizing” of the White Mind has been the primary focus of Race Equality Ideology. The claim that we are all racially equal has been most opportunistically deployed by International Capitalism for commercial reasons, not “humanistic” reasons.

The average middle-class white student knows where the Future Employability reality lies…in internalizing the Ideology of Free Trade and racial equality. This is what insures an economic future for him or her.

As proletarian fundamentally, if not serf, the student looks out on what marxists called the “social relations of production” and sees that whites need not apply for jobs unless they prostrate themselves before darkies, , wogs, and chinks. That is the New World Order’s Racial “Noble lie.” Nobility lies in money in these days in the victory of Liberalism: One World of Consumers and serfs.

So, the orientalizing of the White Mind proceeds…do what you’re are told, do not make waves, and Salute the Emperor: Nothing uttered to upset the unprivileged by Nature. Or even the relatively Nature privileged types like north Asians. All one big Humanity worshipping the Emperor.

Just as rice culture demanded absolute social conformity, as opposed to wheat culture which permitted Individualism, the New World Order demands everybody to shut up about race and if racial inequality speakers arise, they are to be cast out, and even jailed. And they do not qualify for jobs.

This can be called another example of bio-cultural co-evolution. Of course, for this to take hold genetically, it must go on for generations. It does not appear that this will happen as the forces of White Nationalism are gaining ground rapidly.

Joe Webb

Very interesting and lots of given information. I consider it though following a totally wrong path.

To my opinion the city of Athens flourished due to the establishment of an open society towards information and discourse, while -at the same time- using human slaves as productive herds.
Incoming and outgoing migration, trading, education and training, logic and democracy formed that environment.

> It would be an important research to find out what led or allowed exclusively the Athenians to look back to their tribal origins, questioning authority and re-inventing laws of equality during, however, the era of slavery.

> The sacredness of hospitality also reflects the past Prometheus era when knowledge and technologies where the passport for peaceful and safe travelling. Athenians see in horror authority-restrictions to knowledge, and visualize this by Zeus sending Might [Κράτος-State] and Violence to bind Prometheus on Caucasus, right where the origin of human technologies is supposed to be.

In any case, identifying the average IQ doesn’t seem to connect in a critical way to the intellectual achievements of specific humans. Should we charge the killing of Hypatia in 415 to the lack of IQ of her killers? Could it be unlikely that some of them could have a higher IQ than her. It would be however most unlikely if theirs father was a mathematician like hers.

Thanks

I did not generally argue that K. was economistic. I merely pointed out that he quoted from (#145)

Pomeranz…”…from my review of Pomeranz: [K.]

Finally, there’s the argument that European capitalist institutions and markets were better developed and thus kick-started its growth. But again, the evidence Pomeranz marshals convinces that, if anything, China was substantially more “capitalist” (in the laissez-faire sense) than Europe. There were far fewer monopolies, and no internal trade barriers – contrast this, for example, with ancient regime France – and as a consequence, the volume of trade flows (in grains, sugar, timber, etc) were far higher within China than in continental Europe. The civil service was professional and meritocratic, whereas in Europe this only came to be in the 19th century. Markets for labor and products were freer in China; guilds had much less political influence than in Europe. Bound labor and feudal obligations remained prevalent far longer in Europe (and India) than in China, where it had long ago become marginal; for instance, the settlement of Taiwan for the cultivation of sugar – China’s equivalent of the Caribbean islands – was done by free labor. Though credit was cheaper in Europe – or, at least, in Holland and Britain – but to cut a long story short, there is (1) no evidence that this made crucial industrial activities unprofitable or impeded further pro-industrial mechanization, and (2) the credit system was more developed in India relative to China and Japan, although it was far more backward in general.”

This statement by Pomeranz, which Mr. Karlin used to challenge or refute my argument that China was not only despotic, but that it was economistic, again shows that Pomeranz IS economistic in keeping with the whole ‘discourse” of the people (third world and communist types) celebrating the East and criticizing the West. There is no mention of The East or China developing institutions of free association, or civil society, or even newspapers (which Duchesnse says did not exist in China). The West has demanded free speech, and yes that was not necessarily for slaves. At least some were free, whereas in China, none were free. Today same thing.

So that is as far as I went with Mr. Karlin in this regard. I did however criticize him for his extra-curricular interests…Russian Cosmism, Gnosticism, and his strong attachment to the Boss of Belarus, who appears to be a communist type if you google him.

Because K. never once crowed about Western Freedoms, but indeed suggested that I be purged from this list, I concluded that his personal psychology includes a strong dose of you know what…oriental despotism. You get it from many thousands of years in a particular environment that rewards conformity and stifles free speech, etc.

Joe Webb

agree. If I stressed despotism as opposed to Individualism, I did not mean to suggest that they form a dyad of opposites. Agree that Individualism and Collectivism is the dyad, if that is the right tern.

Despotism can come in various guises. I suppose it is not unfair to suggest that despotism can more easily occur in a collectivist society. The other main type would be a despotism imposed on a Hobbesian state of nature, of all against all. Another type would be that of the chaotic Africans which are neither Collectivistic nor Individualist, but chaotic egoists, like Hobbes’ psychology. That would be similar to the second ideal type.

So I accept your criticism. I just got going on the Oriental Despotism theme because it is so important these days, and the personality types that engender it are another factor. It is not just intelligence.

I proposed that Israel is essentially a fascist state, in the most descriptive and nonjudgmental sense: racist, or race-chauvinist in the extreme, united around tribal values, militaristic, expansionist (which does not have to be always the case), and nationalist in the extreme with strong leaders, usually of a military background who command (prestige in spades) and charisma.
Elections are consistent with fascism if the body politic is pretty much united and riven with class or race divisions.

(Speaking of Israel I just heard that Trump compared the wall he wants to build with Israel’s wall, as in what’s wrong with that? Clever.)

The jewish cultural bolsheviks included the Authoritarian Personality Adorno, et al types. It was all garbage, and sought only to pathologize White behavior. Another story, but…

The Arab states have completely discredited themselves over the past few years. For example, when Palestinians should have been killing jews in 1948, they were killing one-another. This from Benny Morris’s historiography, Righteous Victims. Then there is the Arab Spring which I immediately predicted would end in Winter…real fast, just a few months. I was correct. They are not capable of democracy (elections). They are only fit for oriental despotism. Ditto most of the rest of the world. India and Japan may be exceptions but they can be criticized.

LIberty, free speech, respect for the opposiltion…big accomplishments. White accomplishments.
I notice in today’s news a poll reporting the relative anger levels in the US by race and “gender” . The Whites are the angriest compared to browns and blacks (surprise…what with their gravy train?) Most interesting is that White women are the angriest…the loopy ladies throwing themselves against the glass ceiling , which of course is a biological ceiling…Billary Rising.

Maybe women are the most natural born despots.

Joe Webb

Karlin explicitly cited Charles Murray’s work, which is not economistic, to argue the opposite of what you misrepresent him as arguing. You should read people’s posts and comments before going on long winded diatribes against them. Comment threads are for dialogue, not monologues. Blog posts are for monologues.

where does narcissism enter?

Individualism, taken to extreme, can manifest as narcissism. For instance, Ayn Rand’s philosophies can arguably encourage narcissistic tendencies masked under the cover of “self interest”.

Since Man is a social animal, it is very normal for people to seek out relationships with normal people. Strong personal relationships defeat narcissism. (This then gets into the area of intersubjectivity…two people or more recognizing one-another’s human virtues and entering into strong friendship, comradeship.)

People can have differing degrees of “closeness” and still enjoy “friendship” if the rules of the relationship are clearly defined and no misunderstanding of “mutual obligations” are violated.

Nevertheless, observing Mexican social behavior where I live in Silicon Valley, they seem to be very social and get on pretty well with themselves. Because of a strong social element I would guess their behavior is not very narcissistic. However, we have not defined narcissism and that is a problem.
Then there is the problem of collectivism/strong social bonds freeing people from narcissism, but leading to , you know, despotism. All the places we see mass chaos amongst peoples today are collectivist.

True, but I think we’re conflating different things. One can be communal and despotic because one desires to FORCE communalism. One can also be individualistic and despotic justified by the view that the OTHER is “less than”. I think Western slavery, imperialism and genocide were often rationalized by the view of the “lesser other”.

Arguably, the more “collectivized” into conforming to group goals, the more at risk one is for, in this case, failing to live up to the rules.

So, whatever narcissism is, and I do not mean to be cute here, it might help prevent depression because one simply does not march to the same drummer as the group.

Yes… the more “socially” sensitive you are, the greater the risk of being vulnerable to “peer pressure” and the feeling that one doesn’t “measure up”.

But the more individualistic and “narcissistic” you are, the greater the risk of feeling “alienated”, “isolated” and “disconnected” from humanity and the Universe.

Unchecked, either can lead to depression and suicide.

So, if you value Freedom, you are at risk for incurring social censure. Individualists do better at brushing off this censure. White societies have put Freedom and Intersubjectivity at the top while despotic people don’t know what the ? They beat one-another up, avoid I-Thou relationship, tyrannize over their families, and only submit to the Big Man, which is always unstable because of ambitious other Big Man wannabees. Meanwhile the mass simply does what it is told…China, etc.

Your contrasts are, again, unfair.

The opposite of individualism is not despotism, but communalism. Both individualism and communalism have their merits.

The reasonable person can know that individualism is meaningless in the absence of community. And communalism is worthless in the absence of individual happiness.

Despotism is not a symptom of communalism but the destruction of liberties — communal liberties and individual.

Communalism works better in some contexts (family). And individualism works better in others (business). But families also cannot ignore individual eccentricities and capitalism eventually fails when it disregards the collective good.

In our own economic system today, we’ve gone so far in the direction of “individualism”, we’ve forgotten that while “self-interest” may be the explicit rule, “our interest” is the implicit rule.

When we don’t balance “self-interest” with “our interest”, the invisible hand stops working and capitalism breaks down.

correction, above paragraph 4, line 3, economistic, not economist. Line 5, despotisms, not despotism.

Joe Webb

you are correct that I have not paid much attention to Karlin’s article and I did so remark and read it and stated that I thought it was ok to good, but that I lacked competence scientifically to say anything about it.

However, his “not all Greeks were geniuses” sort of aroused my suspicions about his motivations.

Dipstick got me going and I apologized to Karlin for allowing Dipstick’s , to me very weird rejection of Lynn’s numbers on the near east, etc., to color my further remarks after I discovered the personal details on Karlin’s website which I found very weird, and further stated that those weird details might be taken into consideration when regarding his scientific objectivity, especially his quotation of Pomeranz, deployed to counter my argument.

Guilt by association: Pomeranz is part of the leftie/decolonizing/ deconstructing crowd that has written many books attempting to destroy Eurocentrism. It is also economist in the extreme, demonstrating a lack of interest in other factors of ‘civilization’ like Free Speech, Liberty, civil society (beyond the reach of the State) and so on which is in very short supply in all the despotism around the world. And yes, I call them all oriental because they are…except for Africa, which is merely Chaos, not even a despotism that can keep the peace.

What I mean by destroying is exactly that. An objective scholarship that attempts to place the East in better view of western people is fine. But that is not what this group of haters has done.

As for Karlin being required to meet any personal demands of Joe Webb, he does not. But, again, his claim to professionalism is dubious, for all the reasons I have stated, including his apparent admiration for the communist boss of Belarus.

The general rejection of the term Oriental Despotism by Karlin and Dipstick I find funny and have asked them that since they reject the term, by what would they suggest it be replaced?

This is reasonable social science. Maybe they like oriental despotism, or whatever other term they would use. That is OK by me, but I would think that social science wise, that would hold them up to scrutiny by other professionals who might disagree and puzzle over their lack of commitment to Freedom and Individualism.

One last bit. I wonder if Russian Cosmism is related to the strange case of Alexander Dugin, who I am embarrassed to admit, is admired a bit by some of the characters in White Nationalism….bringing back a kind of Bolshevist Nationalism. Here we go.

Joe Webb

good point. more or less. but since when and where does narcissism enter?

Social relations are not easy to analyze.

However, for example, when Trust disappears or is attenuated, per Robert Putnam’s study (Diversity and Community in the 21 century) of a large number of US areas chosen with regard to high diversity vs. low diversity (meaning racial diversity) and then studied in this regard, and the areas with highest Trust were racially the most homogenous, then one must think about how high vs. low trust of the people one is around will affect one’s , shall we say, narcissism quotient. I assume that low narcissism correlates strongly with high Trust social groups.

This would assume that genuinely Social as opposed to Individual- genetic/personal would show up in racially homogenous societies, other things being equal. Since Man is a social animal, it is very normal for people to seek out relationships with normal people. Strong personal relationships defeat narcissism. (This then gets into the area of intersubjectivity…two people or more recognizing one-another’s human virtues and entering into strong friendship, comradeship.)

My hunch is that the Socially determined is real and accounts for a large part of the narcissism.

Nevertheless, observing Mexican social behavior where I live in Silicon Valley, they seem to be very social and get on pretty well with themselves. Because of a strong social element I would guess their behavior is not very narcissistic. However, we have not defined narcissism and that is a problem.
Then there is the problem of collectivism/strong social bonds freeing people from narcissism, but leading to , you know, despotism. All the places we see mass chaos amongst peoples today are collectivist.

That Individualists can fight is still clear. Whites, just recently went to world war 2 over Ideas. I don’t know any other race that fights over Ideas, unless it is religious ideas.

There is a study reported in American Renaissance news section just a couple days ago on Chinese high levels of depression and risk of suicide. Given that they are highly collectivistic, this does not eventuate in psychologically mutually reinforcing behavior. Where I live, there is stated problem around Palo Alto of suicides of high schoolers, and the perhaps over-representation of Chinese.

Clearly there is no simple explanation for this, but the usual accounting for the suicides here is the pressure of school/parents.

Arguably, the more “collectivized” into conforming to group goals, the more at risk one is for , in this case, failing to live up to the rules.

So, whatever narcissism is, and I do not mean to be cute here, it might help prevent depression because one simply does not march to the same drummer as the group.

Blacks don’t commit suicide, and arguably they are pretty narcissistic…

So, if you value Freedom, you are at risk for incurring social censure. Individualists do better at brushing off this censure. White societies have put Freedom and Intersubjectivity at the top while despotic people don’t know what the ? They beat one-another up, avoid I-Thou relationship, tyrannize over their families, and only submit to the Big Man, which is always unstable because of ambitious other Big Man wannabees. Meanwhile the mass simply does what it is told…China, etc.

Joe Webb

You’ve been consistently misrepresenting Karlin’s comments here. You don’t seem particularly interested in the original post and the comments about it, but rather see them as a platform to express your political views and expound on issues you regard as more important. That’s fine, but why not start your own blog on it rather than repeatedly distort Karlin’s comments here in order to expound on your preferred positions? Also, why does he have to personally justify his interest in, say, Russian Cosmism, to you? Why the despotic insistence that he address the specific issues that interest you, and that he justify his personal beliefs and interests to you?

The issue is personality and the Western Individualism/Freedom seeking as opposed to Asian Collectivism/despotism

But why is freedom contrasted with despotism? It could just as well be narcissism vs cooperation.

When individualism/freedom are corrupted, we have narcissism, alienation and fragmentation.

When collectivism/despotism are ennobled, we have cooperation, cohesiveness, and harmony.

“Karlin doesn’t argue for Chinese superiority. In fact, quite the opposite in his comments citing Ian Morris and Charles Murray. Neither does anyone else in this thread. Ironically, the only person who’s arguably pushing for any such notion is you, because you keep bringing up Lynn, and his work is the only one being discussed here that promotes such a notion.”

I would be the first to acknowledge that the Chinese , Japanese, and Koreans , per Lynn/Vanhanen may have a few points on Whites, although the methodology may be somewhat flawed because I don’t know if the vast billion plus Chinese were tested, as opposed to Shanghai , Beijing, etc.

Call it a least a tie, with the strong possibility that they are a bit smarter.

That is not the issue, IQ.

The issue is personality and the Western Individualism/Freedom seeking as opposed to Asian Collectivism/despotism, which includes really everywhere else all over the world, if one wants to make an extreme perhaps case.

My #221 comment summarizes the fundamental issue right here on this thread. The issue is whether Mr. Karlin, thru his apparent siding with Pomeranz, et al, who emphasizes economics to the exclusion of , shall we say, humane life as expressed in the best of Western culture (this economics/money perseveration has long been called, especially by the Left, “economism”) …whether Mr. Karlin is a part of, or a fellow traveler with the Haters of White Civilization, whom I have summarized earlier, and on #221, and which accounts for probably 100 pages of Duchesne’s analysis in his book, Uniqueness… This is important stuff. Also Mr. Karlin’s crypticism with regard to his stated values, is at best coy, and at worst, indeed a concealment and with apparent insolence thrown in as well. This is personal despotism, arrogance

Perhaps you could re-read my #221.

Also my pointing out the possible problematics of Mr. Karlin’s , to me, very strange interests in weird religion and metapolitics, like his stated attachment to the Strong Man communist of Belarus, and all the oddities I pointed out, bring into question his authority with regard to science and objectivity.

Finally, the rabid nature of some of the comments on Duchesne , principally Dipstick, when all I did was bring up his book as an interesting and engaging history, and his tripartite view of the historical ethnic groups that coalesced into making the Whites of today, which Razib Kahn’s just published article also remarks, again suggests some pretty strong anti-white Feelings.

White Nationalism as it exists has its problems, and which political movement does not?

The attack on Whites is firmly established in academe, the jewyorktimes, and liberal media generally. Mr. Karlin appears to share in this assault. I would welcome a statement of his denying this as well as a comment on the hate-school of lefties and deconstructors which include Pomeranz, who lead this anti-white racism intellectually.

Joe Webb

You need to ask yourself who adds and who subtracts. If you think Saba people, or whoever add, go live with them.

Slave based economies are also compatible with Western freedom based societies. The ancient Greek city-states were significantly slave based, and slaves often greatly outnumbered citizens. For example, Attica at around 300 BC had about 1 citizen for 20 slaves. Incidentally, that’s a lower ratio than the number of Chinese Communist Party members today relative to the Chinese population.

Karlin doesn’t argue for Chinese superiority. In fact, quite the opposite in his comments citing Ian Morris and Charles Murray. Neither does anyone else in this thread. Ironically, the only person who’s arguably pushing for any such notion is you, because you keep bringing up Lynn, and his work is the only one being discussed here that promotes such a notion.

Regarding the Indo-Europeans, they seem to be inadequate as a complete explanation. They were strongly clan and kin based, and they settled areas like Ireland which have been relatively backward and haven’t been very accomplished:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2015-12/tcd-ssf122315.php

glad to see that you are “totally cool” with Lynn, and again I apologize for tarring you with the Dip stick views in that regard.

As for your “religion is that of ..Lukashenko” and that your are an “Orthodox atheist” these are two remarks that beg clarity, full disclosure, and , in short, truth in advertising. Or they are just more contempt, insolence, adolescent cuteness.

Alexander Lukashenko: If you go to wiki there is a long piece on him, the apparent Big Man of Belarus, communist, and accused of various bad manners from a democratic point of view in his governance. I suggest the reader go there for herself and read up on Lukashenko, a study in post communist communism of the old People’s Paradise.

Is Lukashenko white, or Asia Minor type? Not that it matters a lot because plenty of whites in Russia disgraced themselves over the 70 some years of communism. Of course, some would argue that Slavs are a sub-ethny of White, and I have nothing to say about that. “Culture” and history do make some difference after all.

Obsevation: atheism is an unscientific or illogical position inasmuch as there is no way to know. So agnosticism IS a proper scientific position, not atheism. That said, since arguably the need for religion is genetic in the sense that 99% of folks want a Story to account for things, I accommodate religion.

The vernaculars (cool, jerk, totally ) might be the mark of a recent immigrant, and are excusable on that account, but for an old fart like myself, they grate…like the locutions generally of the click-heads.

So the confessed Lukashenkoism (read communist, or reformed but still communist) and Orthodox atheism remain a big ? over Mr. Karlin.

Perhaps my suspicions were 100% correct when I accused Mr. Karlin of being part of the big Conspiracy of lefties, and deconstructors to demolish the West and build a case for China and the Third World. This is why Mr. Karlin’s #45 comment which was economistic ( and to which I responded, “it this all you got?”…..that China was not , I guess a despotism because it had a somewhat libertarian economy….demonstrates the thesis that tyranny is completely compatible with libertarian economics, just as globalism today is totally cool with China and the other slave or partially slave based economies of the world, and especially cool with regard to degrading First World labor standards, etc.

Economism was defeated basically on the Left after its manifest failures, and the Leftie brain then moved on and embarked on Race Equality ideology to attack Whites and White Civilization. This of course was a heavily Jewish contribution what with cultural Bolshevism, etc, which everybody here is familiar with. Then liberal altruistic whites got in on it heavily, like myself back a few decades, and my parents who were duly subverted by their own high altruism…nordic types they were of course and thus the recipients of a heavy dose of hunter-gatherer egalitarianism, etc.

The latest effort of all these Haters of Whites and White civilization has been the De-Colonizers, and the Development of Underdevelopment and Imperialism studies, etc. This is what the first part of Duchesne’s book covers. Pomeranz, The Great Divergence, which I assume is what Mr. Karlin quoted from in his #45 comment, was hammered real good (the thesis of Chinese, etc. superiority) by Duchesne, was totally economistic (material life is the first thing, not liberty and refined consciousness …a marxist problem of course ) and is thus reckoned to be, 1, not true, and , 2, just more communist thinking, or maybe Oriental Despotism, which might include Marx himself who used the term abusively, but was nontheless Jewish, and perhaps a member of the semitic orientals.

So, to put it simply, I conclude that Mr. Karlin is part of this intellectual movement, but maybe not. If he is not, a reasonable response from him would help clarify matters, as well as just possibly including a civilized report on his apparent metaphysics of Russian cosmism, and the rest of my perhaps just quibbling over unimportant matters, like communism, weird religion, and so on.

I conclude with GK Chesterton’s (Catholic writer about 100 years ago): In an age of Unbelief, the problem is not that people do not Believe, but that they will Believe anything.

I think I got that right. Joe Webb

It might help to check out Jason Malloy’s work at Humanvarities. He has not only essentially been doing a complete reanalysis of Lynn’s work, but has been expanding on it. Here’s some of what he’s found: http://humanvarieties.org/2014/07/16/hvgiq-thailand/

“Not a few. I’ve found errors in most of the studies I’ve looked at. He’s incredibly careless, and I’m sorry but that matters. Future analyses will determine if the errors are random or systematic.”

http://humanvarieties.org/2014/06/06/hvgiq-burma/#comment-369

“A long time ago I checked through his China references and almost none of them even contained IQ data! It was totally baffling. I have 100s of Chinese studies, many of them in Chinese. I would love to start working on the China post, but it would be a crazy amount of work, and I would probably need a good Chinese collaborator.

You are right, though. I have not carefully examined them, but many studies from rural China report IQ scores in the 90s, 80s and lower.”

I have never seen any actual validation the TIMSS, PERLS etc. are essentially IQ tests- the fact they’re called “scientific achievement tests” seems to be a major factor in believing as such. It’s essentially a group of like-minded researchers who rally around Lynn’s research and are convinced it’s completely valid, and do everything they can to make the other tests validate it. I find it really hard to get around how all over the place some of these scores are (assuming they’re as good as IQ tests), like how Kyrgyzstan is at the very bottom or how places like Trinidad and Tobago and Mexico do better than Argentina: https://ourtimes.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/oecd-education-rankings/

Malloy has also noted this about Lynn and why he became more critical: http://humanvarieties.org/2014/07/16/hvgiq-thailand/#comment-445

““What has made you notice all these errors you haven’t before?”

Analyzing the data for this website. My attitudes have developed and will continue to develop based on what I find.

(As far as Lynn goes, I think I was first most appalled by that list of fake numbers from a hoax website that he submitted to P&ID in 2012. It took me 15 minutes to discover that that dataset was a fraud. Every number I looked at was fake. Lynn didn’t bother checking one study, and apparently the peer reviewers couldn’t be bothered either. I can’t believe that that paper still hasn’t been retracted.)”

He’s referring to a site with an international comparison of penis size.

Finally, it’s worth noting how Rindermann has defended african IQ findings (in this defense of Watson, when Malloy was more positive): http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php

“… I do not believe that the [sub-Saharan testing] scores at the general level are largely incorrect: The low values correspond to too many other variables and aspects standing for low cognitive abilities like results of student assessment and Piaget studies (e.g. Botswana in IEA-Reading 14 year-old pupils 1991 330, as IQ 75; South-Africa in TIMSS 8th graders 1999 259, as IQ 64; Ghana in TIMSS 8th graders 2003 266, as IQ 65; South-Africa in TIMSS 8th graders 2003 254, as IQ 63; plausibility considerations lead to lower results for the youth of Africa because of low school attendance rates and unrepresentative participation of countries), poor quality school systems, high skipping rates, low rates of high school degrees, low patent application rates, no famous universities, and many reports of everyday behaviour from officials, traders, journalists, ethnologists and other scientists in 19th century to this day… (p 770)”

This discussion has mainly been about Lynn’s findings on the Balkans though- from the most recent works of Lynn, what do you honestly think of the fact Lynn claims only 3 European countries have an IQ of 100, 3 european countries have IQ’s of 82-85, and have IQ’s this low because of Turkish admixture, which nonetheless has a higher IQ than all of them?

Civilization didn’t exist in Scandinavia until much later. Nor can you get around the basic reality of brain size being just as large in Africa and Australia as it was in Eurasia in the distant past.

This list , to me is oddly preoccupied with the very technical details of HBD and is allergic to what is happening at the macro level with regard to race in our world right now. Maybe this is just too scary a scene to get into. I find Gnosticism and Russian cosmism pretty scary stuff in a man of science.

Joe Webb

Karlin owes us an accounting of these Beliefs because they may be informing his putative science.

This blog is called the “Russian Reaction” blog and is primarily focused on comparative history, international politics, and social science and on Russian perspectives. It’s unique in that respect among English language blogs. The purpose of this blog is not to cater to your personal preoccupations, interests, and whims. Karlin doesn’t owe you anything, and Russian Cosmism and Gnosticism have nothing to do with the original post.

“….and the overall point is that they don’t fit the cartoon ice age climates theory or arabs always being unintelligent, which aren’t even the best evidence against it.”

grammar may be off here, but your precious use of the word cartoon is mockery. You have not presented any argument in refutation of the Ice Age Theory, you merely mock it.

Nobody ever said “arabs always being unintelligent.” This usage of yours is very strange since we all know what a bell curve is. You are an ideologist, not a thinker.

Joe Webb

mea culpa with regard to some of your criticism. It was Dipwill’s denials of Lynn, as well as his rudeness that got me going. Then when I googled Karlin and discovered his bizarre interest in
Russian Cosmism, and from 183 and 184…
——-
“Russian cosmism was a philosophical and cultural movement that emerged in Russia in the early 20th century. It entailed a broad theory of natural philosophy, combining elements of religion and ethics with a history and philosophy of the origin, evolution and future existence of the cosmos and humankind. It combined elements from both Eastern and Western philosophic traditions as well as from the Russian Orthodox Church.”

Cosmism was one of the influences on Proletkult, and after the October Revolution,…”

So the Bolsheviks got into it too…this is crazy stuff, totally crazy, ergo
————-
I hit the roof. Then his genotype looks Turkic, and I simply concluded that he has a magian near east mental problem.

So apologies to Karlin for not making clear especially to myself, and this list, the fact that it was Dipwell’s weird claims about Lynn’s IQ numbers, especially since he offered no science based argument to replace Lynn’s thesis, not Karlin’s.

Also the knee-jerk hostility to Duchesne, someone who has written a big interesting book, by Dipwell…got me going.

That , combined with Russian Cosmism and Gnosticism ( a truly strange ‘religion’ and one that Harold Bloom, the Jewish critic, says explains a lot about American Religion..it is not Christianity per Bloom…and I dunno) led to my emotional reaction.

For that I do not apologize. Since Karlin appears to be a genuine scientist, and I do not fault this article since I do not have the competence to do so, and it sounds plausible and is convincing enough at a lay level, I wonder still how a scientist can go in for the lame-brained stuff I discovered about Karlin.

Reminds me of a story by the Indian novelist/human rights gal, Arandati (?) Roy: with regard to the nuke shaking of Pakistan and India a few years ago, she said she knew a “scientist” who said, “nuclear war does not matter, we will all come ’round again.” This kind of orientalizing is like Karlin’s beliefs about Gnosticism and Russian cosmism.

I just asked Razib Khan for an opinion on Lynn and the Duchesne thesis. He did not respond to the query about Lynn, but he did basically say that his science does not get into the last 4,000 years or so, or at least that is what I concluded from his brief remark.

This list , to me is oddly preoccupied with the very technical details of HBD and is allergic to what is happening at the macro level with regard to race in our world right now. Maybe this is just too scary a scene to get into. I find Gnosticism and Russian cosmism pretty scary stuff in a man of science.

Joe Webb

Karlin owes us an accounting of these Beliefs because they may be informing his putative science.
Also I have known an ultra smart math guy who is a Believer in the Second Coming, Scofield Bible version.

Math may not be bothered by Jesus, but, ideologies of racial equality or inequality and
Ethnic chauvinism can disturb reasoning or agendas with regard to especially the near and middle east.

But the point is that ancient civilization in those regions managed to progress well given the harshness and isolation of the climate, and again the prowess of the early muslim conquests

It may have been harsher in Scandinavia.

Islam may not be able to exist without violence.

Karlin hasn’t exhibited any hostility to Lynn in this post and thread. He approvingly cited PISA scores, which fall in line more or less with Lynn’s work. Karlin also approvingly cited Charles Murray’s work and conclusions. Karlin even argues in the post that the ancient Greeks had a mean IQ of 90, so it’s bizarre that you think he has some sort of problem with the idea of low mean IQs in that part of the world.

Have you even read the post and comment thread? You seem mostly just interested in ranting in monologues, making ad hominem attacks, and airing your political views. You don’t even seem really interested in the history and comparative history issues of the post as topics in and of themselves, but just as a platform for your political identity and for airing out your political views.

I admit I’m not familiar with ancient Saba, but I’ve never gotten the impression they were primitive. They did have a wide-ranging seafaring culture, and the fact they didn’t contribute much to the further north cultures is a consequence of their isolation. I don’t think it’s fair to say they were actually primitive though, and they weren’t the only indigenous civilization that existed in ancient Arabia.

I won’t deny that until Islam, arabia was largely a backwater (being mostly desert), and even until recent times was. But the point is that ancient civilization in those regions managed to progress well given the harshness and isolation of the climate, and again the prowess of the early muslim conquests. Nor are they the only semitic people with advanced civilization going back awhile. And the overall point is that they don’t fit the cartoon ice age climates theory or arabs always being unintelligent, which aren’t even the best evidence against it.

By comparison to contemporary European or even Asian culture these isolated kingdoms, like Saba (current day Yemen), were primitive. They would have been on the receiving end of any cultural exchange and did not contribute technologies, religious forms, literature or art to these major players. These people have not changed much over the centuries which indicates little intellectual vigor or spiritual growth.

Interesting, and worth study, but not advanced for their time. I think that Wiki article says more about current attitudes in multicultural academic circles than a balanced assessment would concerning that area.

further Mark, your “amateur scholarship” tag is particularly offensive as I do not make any claims to scholarship. I offered some scholarship, genuine variety, ten years per Duchesne, and from you I get this kind of hostility? You are so obsessed with the jews and anybody who follows your obsession, that your Reason is short-circuited.

The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Of all the jews and arabs that I have known personally, I will take the Jews anytime.

Joe WEbb

reasonable point. The Japanese who have probably assimilated as much as they can, and are as smart as us and chinks, still are collectivistic/family oriented.

Something wrong with being socially cognizant and family oriented? Isn’t that something you wish other minorities would be more?

And the Japanese (and Chinese, et al) would probably be more “assimilated” if not for the “bamboo ceiling” in American society.

They do not participate in politics, like other Asians, except to somewhat get into the spoils game and almost always vote Democratic. Then there are the multiple China towns without much assimilation that I can see, and when they do assimilate or sorts, it is always along racial alliance lines,…the Dem. Party again.

I think you answered your own question to why this exists:

That is what comes from a splintered ethnic character in any society.

I think these things are more of a symptom of American society than innate Japanese/Chinese characteristics.

What’s more, “Chinatowns” tend to be tourist attractions and historical relics than places where most Chinese really live and work.

Putnam was and probably is a liberal…..Harvard sociology Prof, etc. He Thought he was going to prove that Diversity Makes Us Stronger. This was about 2008. Read it, it is short.

I’m not white but I also don’t believe that diversity (over a certain point) makes us stronger but weaker. And I think we crossed that point some time ago.

Results were that on every measure of trust, everybody was dramatically less trusting in the diverse communities and dramatically more trusting in the racially homogenous communities.
One of the more salient bits was this: trust in one’s own race was severely degraded. Sound familiar?

The conclusions do not surprise me. It’s common sense.

What I have suggested in general here the last few days, is that Duchesne offers an explanation of how Whites became who we are (he overlooks altruism, but that could be added to the list of virtues of a prestige based intersubjectivity).

I’m not familiar with Duchesne, but this “intersubjectivity” thing seems to be blown out of proportion. Perhaps suggesting, even, that non-whites lack “empathy” (at least in equal quantity/quality to whites)? It recalls the time when it was assumed animals lacked the capacity for “feeling”.

The other guys here go ape, and perseverate on economics, and forget freedom, a white trait.

“Freedom” (personal liberty) is no more a white trait than industrialization, TV and the internet.

The first guy to invent/codify something doesn’t get to say that it’s in their exclusive genetic makeup unless you have evidence to support that.

Yes I am a White racist. Did not start out that way; started out marching with MLK and then kept an eye on things for a long time what with family, job, other interests, etc. About 50 years of age, when I became financially independent, I started to read about things that I did not understand very well. Voila! The world is racist. That is just the way we are. I am surprised that some of the HBD folks find that hard to digest.

As Karlin explained, one can be a “race realist” without being a “racist”.

mark, you seem to have overlooked what Karlin is up to…his is an anti-Eurocentric and anti-white project which has been the main source of motivation for all the scholarship which Duchesne and others have critiqued. Andre Gunder Frank, one of the leaders in this anti-Europe narrative, was a friend of mine, about 40 to 50 years ago. Duchesne spends a lot of time on Frank. Frank was a good guy, but he was a Jew and a semi-communist and was associated with Monthly Review Press.
The Ethnic factor thus at work again, as with Karlin: hate whitey.

The anti-White anti-Europe project is clearly what Karlin is up to along with Dippy the me-too guy, over the last few decades to deconstruct the , to use their terms, Narrative of White and Western Civilization and Euro-centrism.

You as a putative White Nationalist seem to have some kind of weird love of Arabs and call them White and resist their obvious deficits. Also you seem to sign on to these guys’s hatred of Richard Lynn, because Lynn gives the Arabs and Asia Minor folks also a low rank in IQ.

Karlin, if you google him and get his photo, plus his weird magian beliefs that he professes, is from Asia Minor, not that there is anything wrong with that inherently, but this explains his hostility to Lynn, and the Lynn numbers of his ethnic brethren. These guys do not offer an explanation of why Europeans have been so successful, they only Refuse Duchesene, et al. That is ok, but they do not have their own explanation for why Whites have dominated the world. In their frustration they go off on me, and I return the favor, but only in response to their insolence.

Follow the Ethnicity.

Joe Webb

Several, mainly ancient Sabea, since it was located in the far southwest of Arabia, further away from outside influences: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Islamic_Arabia

And then there’s how advanced civilization in Arabia long predated Islam . . .

What civilization are you talking about?

Joe- I appreciate your erstwhile curiosity and amateur scholarship, but you are being needlessly argumentative today.

Unz is a remarkable forum. I treasure the wide range of educated contributors here, as well as the generally high level of civility. Don’t you? Let’s keep it that way.

No one has all the answers–especially on subjects involving oblique, foreign cultures in the distant past. So lighten up, please.

It’s really impossible to get a full handle on it all. Therefore, a little humility goes a long way. In the meantime, let’s share ideas. No rancor necessary.

What “totalitarian character” and “rage” are you talking about? I don’t see where Anatoly has exhibited a “totalitarian character” or “rage” in this thread. By contrast, you’ve been mostly ranting in monologues and making ad hominem attacks. Anatoly has only even responded to you a few times, mostly about fairly specific historical points, and you’ve just responded angrily with ad hominem attacks against him on his own blog. You don’t even seem to be really interested in these historical issues in and of themselves as intellectual topics.

taking just one of your distortions, “…..could never, ever be like him, how the white man has always been moral and treated animals just fine.”

never said that. You may have a brain tumor, better get checked. I said that whites are the only race to save the whales, etc. That was a joke, but true enough.

Me, a victim? never said that, because I have never been one. alwayhs kicked ass on the various bullies on the schoolyard, and now am kicking yours and Karlin’s.

My remark on Cyprus was a joke, but you appear to be sans a sense of humor, but you do flee when the going gets tough and your arguments are but a paper tiger.

My”threats” of violence are not threats, they were not violent either. I simply proposed a boxing match, which can only happen thru mutual consent. Nothing veiled or illegal about that. But your cowardice perceives it that way.

So then, where is Karlin? I am here waiting to do another bit of intellectual boxing, or has he left the building? The Viking vs. the Oriental Despot.

As I stated earlier, you guys are exactly the kind of white haters that Duchesne wrote his book about. He has beaten your arguments, and I have also done the same thing. Victory is sweet. Where is my prestige?

Joe Webb

Hi Priss. Incredibly, not long ago, some commentators at this site declared you a fraud of some kind, apparently because your remarks (concerning Jews) seemed so over-the-top and (perhaps) troll-like. Maybe some of your comments could have been read that way, but I never believed so.

Since then, I’ve been increasingly impressed by your creative talents and originality. You’re also very funny. You are able to synthesize a good deal of forgotten history and myth with contemporary drama (including pop culture); then mix it all in with colliding political trends. Quite perspicacious!–(to use a two-dollar word).

This latest reply/essay of yours is once-again of a very high caliber, even though it stays and wanders over vast and uneven terrain. Your theories cover a lot of ground. But they all ring at least partly true. That in itself is no small intellectual achievement.

Thank you for sharing with us your take on Mr. Karlin’s incisive overview of Western history, myth and the rise/decline of great civilizations. Well done to both of you!

And thank you, Mr. Unz, for creating this extraordinary forum. Most of the comments here are of the highest caliber. The Unz Review is in a virtual class by itself.

I typed up a longer reply, but I realized it wasn’t worth it- between you and [email protected], you’re both hands down the worst people to get into debates with on this site. The only thing I will directly reply to is Lynn’s Europe figures. The map I posted is from his 2012 book, which you’re aware of. You think Cyprus’ score is strange? Look at Lynn’s entire map, especially Bosnia, Montengro and Albania compared to Turkey. It’s because he’s a liar and a fraud, not just sloppy.

The rest of your post- your mindless regurgitation of Lynn’s figures, Persians as dumb, based on your experiences on top of Lynn’s figures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Americans#Education), your haughty, deluded moral crusading via Duchense’s work, your bizarre attacks on Karlin and how a white man could never, ever be like him, how the white man has always been moral and treated animals just fine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat-burning), surely something going back to the Indo-Europeans (but again, why so much divergence, like those IQ of 87 Persians?), and your victim mentality, how we’re the bullies and haven’t presented anything- I’m not going to bother any further. You’ve mindlessly attacked Karlin enough, so maybe he can have a turn.

Using a pseudonym isn’t a sign of cowardice, and it’s often a sign of basic sense. Look at you using your real name while you liberally toss around “chink” and make veiled threats of violence. But I guess you have nothing to lose in behaving this way at 74.

correction: third line from top….seeks , not seems. JW

from Jacob Burckhardt, The Greeks and Greek Civilization, St. Martin’s Press, 1998

page 59: “Law and the constittution are hymned in the most sublime phrases….They are the ‘rulers of the cities’, and Demaratus the Spartan seems to explain to Xerxes that his people fear King Law (despotes nomos) more than the Persians fear their Great King.”

He continues about the lawgiver as a “superhuman being,” and so on.

Oriental Despotism vs. relative freedom from tyrants, etc.

page 71: Greeks listed the principal motives of human conduct, their reckoning never failed to give its true place the love of honor (in original italicized). “the pursuit of honor”: (italicized again) a very large component of Greek life. “Fame, not “rank and wealth” was what Greeks sought. Greeks always sought “to be first and outshine the rest.”

Honor here is what Duchesne calls prestige. One can be rich and powerful but without honor, or prestige, etc. Prestige and honor seek admiration and recognition. Again, this requires egalitarianism amongst relative equals, and in the Greek case, amongst the aristocracy. First among equals.

Oriental Despotism cares not for prestige, it cares for obedience, obeisance, fear. At its worst, prostration in front of the King, etc. Greeks criticized their chiefs in the Iliad, and I suppose this continued throughout our history.
Totally? of course not. But we invented liberty, and nobody else did or does. The Greeks did a fair amount of bragging…not de rigeur today. Trump behaves like a Greek sometimes. Great.

Joe Webb…me too maybe

Joe Webb

First, with regard to Ice Age Theory, you talked vaguely of “population dynamics and selective processes”…ok what are they.

You continue to dispute Lynn’s numbers in the Balkans. Here they are, (IQ and Global Inequality, 2006. Lynn and Vanhanen) Greece: 92, Croatia: 90, Bosnia-Herzgovina: 90, Serbia: 89, Macedonia 91, (Turkey: 90 ) Albania: 90, (Cyprus: 91, right in the middle between Turkey and Greece…strange !) Montenegro: 89.

Lynn probably fiddled with this since he was too la zy to do the necessary work you might say.

Brain size for Neanderthal was larger. So what? Quality vs. Quantity..

The centrality of IQ falling all over the world per latitude is overwhelming evidence for the Ice Age Thesis. That and comparing overall development materially and civilizationally. The only exceptions to the north- south IQ numbers are Jews and Amerindians. Jews we can discuss later. Americans all came from the same place apparently in 3 different waves…Mongolia is what I read. They all have the same IQ , north and south America…about 83 84.’

Arabs are dumb, also Persians. I have know many here in the US when I was active in the Iraq Sanctions movement. Iraq: 87, Iran: 84, EgyptL 81 (next to Black Africans) Syria: 83, Saudi Arabia: 84, Libya: 83, Morocco: 84.

This all adds up, a constant drop as one goes south. Black Africa at 67 average, and as I recall Australian Aboriginees and Pygmies at 65. Do you think Africans do cannibalism and burn witches and cut up their women (Arabs too), and kill albino kids for witch doctors to cut up for charms or cannibalisms because they have a different “Culture”???

You guys are the folks that Duchesne has written his book to defeat… on your own ground, not on IQ distribution, and genetic arguments based on research right now. Your tendentiousness slips toward lies in the service of your egos and with regard to Karlin, his race, a Turk or Tartar, or some kind of Asia Minor strain. Also, his totalitarian character, his rage…indicates that he is some kind of Asia Minor type, not a White man (excuse me, yes whites can get rageful, but not over this kind of scholarly disagreement. Also, this kind of behavior is similar to white liberals who hate us racialists. They are killers, even though White. But…this is the northern hunter-gatherer type of genome, like Swedes and Germans (myself included ) who have way too much altruism.

Only Whites save the whales, abolished slavery, never enslaved our women, invented liberty and things like democratic governance, free speech, and the whole catalogue ….especially civil society…of intermediate layers of authority between the “base” and the putative “top” of social systems.

Call me a racist and hire a jewish lawyer…waste of time.

Plus all the every-day evidence of the news, etc, confirms the fact of falling IQ per latitude. I could cite the Asian IQ falling away from China…all the way down to India at 82.

There are always smart individuals in any race cuz of the bell curve and standard deviations and all that.

You guys don’t argue , you are bullies. You have no alternative argument, or have not presented it.
Also, the tendency for insolence is cowardice really. You hide behind your ….
Joe Webb

Wilmore Kendal wrote that the Athenians were right to condemn Socrates because he was pushing the envelope of their culture’s consensus too far. He was given the choice of exile or death, and he chose the encounter with hemlock thereby acknowledging his indebtedness to that consensus even as he challenged it.

A consideration: What if the Bell shaped curve was/is somewhat different for various population groups? By this I mean that the graphically displayed flanges could be truncated or wider, and higher or shallower; and the body of the bell could be much thicker or narrower.

It is the outliers, the extremes at the flanges that produce dolts, but also the geniuses. A high median IQ level for a given population might not produce many geniuses if its flanges were truncated and not much at variance with the median.

“The Ancient Greeks were remarkable effective at escaping the Malthusian trap for a preindustrial society. (I am not sure why that was the case. Slavery? Feel free to leave suggestions in the comments).”

There were not enough of them to over populate an area.

The famous cities had low birthrates. The cities also had diseases that killed off the population.

Olive oil can be stored forever so they were able to smooth over the booms and busts in agricultural production.

Maybe Malthus is a bogus theory, are there any examples of large areas spontaneously starving? What are the examples of a Malthusian catastrophe? Any from the Mediterranean?

Maybe Greeks were able to improve agricultural output without increasing population? Slaves eat so perhaps when food was scarce slaves were freed. The freed slaves went inland, possibly back to where they were captured.

The ancients moved around a lot, maybe if there were excess people in an area they just got in boats and rowed away.

Constant warring reduced the population.

Pythagoras Theorem – How do you know Pythagoras did not get the proof from elsewhere and was therefore an IQ 100 with a good publicist?

That doesn’t really answer why different Indo-European societies, even in ancient times, ended up so differently, and why so many have ended up so backwards. I’m not going to make much over Duchesne being a white nationalist, but it is good to know his true views, and I will say it seems like a sanitation of ancient historical narratives I’ve seen thrown about by more extreme people. I’m still curious to know how asians, including the Japanese, are all incapable of democracy.

Your post digging at Karlin’s origins is really strange because most of what you’re mocking are things I’ve said. Karlin was the one who originally remarked how Greece and Balkan countries do poorly on tests and accepted the scores as reliable. My “fury” and “rage” have nothing to do with my ethnic origins (I’ve been accused of being black before on this site- I’m white and have no ancestry from the Balkans) and more with how Lynn’s IQ scores for those countries are some of the most blatant examples of how full of it he is. You called me an idiot for saying Albania’s IQ was anywhere near that low, but I was right. He thinks there’s 3 European countries with IQ’s equal to or lower than african-americans (and lower than Turkey!), and (something I never really noticed before) only 3 european countries have IQ’s of 100.

Turkish/arab admixture has been minimal in those countries, and this isn’t even going into how the Turks are heavily Greek (the main prior inhabitants) and how white slaves from the balkans have contributed. And personally, I’d say Turkey does have potential for being even better off- it got put up on google maps street view recently, and I’m pretty surprised by how clean and well maintained many Turkish towns and cities are. It seems comparable to eastern europe.

If you want something to “replace” the northern ice age thesis, I could name a great number of things, like selective processes and population dynamics that have taken place in the many thosuands of years since the closure of the ice age. The simplistic “rice vs. wheat farming” theory is in that vein, and I’m sure you’re aware of more. I’ve said before on this site the biggest issue with it is the fact brain size worldwide was larger throughout the world during that time, even Africa and Australia, something Lynn and Rushton and co. never really consider. So you can save your bizarre speculations about arabs (and even the people of asia minor) being in undemanding environments- being caucasoid, their ultimate origins are in the north, and if you think living in warm climates (in this case, usually scorching deserts) lowered their intelligence, wouldn’t we expect other peoples in those regions to have depressed civilizational accomplishments and intelligence? And then there’s how advanced civilization in Arabia long predated Islam and how the muslim conquests were so well-organized and efficient, among many other things. Arabs and other middle easterners in no way have IQ’s that low (they are undoubtedly depressed due to inbreeding, but that doesn’t take long to undo), and never have.

But he and I (or is it just me) have magical thinking. Personally, I’d call Rushton-Lynn’s theories (and a great number of relatively more plausible HBD theories) autistic, which is pretty rampant in these kinds of scenes.

Dippy, I thought I did respond to your agitated posts.

With regard to cartoonish representations, how about the word Abstract as in summary.

What you are overlooking , and it may be in part my fault, is that his thesis includes the addition of northern hunter-gatherers who were very egalitarian, and near east farmers…whatever that might mean, but it suggests a temporizing factor, to hold back the blond beast and get him working, not fighting all the time. Also, this would afford other bases for prestige. Good at farming, good at hunting/gathering, good at fighting. Now good at science, etc.

The fundamental issue here with regard to prestige is whether other races qualify as prestige seekers, more or less, or not. And, for example, if it is just prestige in making money, that tends to negate the intersubjective psychology of rough equality.

If you just want to be envied, or feared…that is not intersubjectivity, it is a form of the master-slave psychology.

This tripartite hypothesis is the fundamental here. It is not just the Indo-Europeans, but they are important because of their contribution of aristocratic egalitarianism, already discussed. The hunter-gathers from the north were perhaps too much egalitarian. The German tribes would suggest such a blending of traits….elected chiefs, warlike, etc.

This is a thesis….only, and it is worth discussion, and yes Duchesne is more or less a White Nationalist. Got a problem with that? I hope you laugh.

Joe Webb

Speaking of art and stuff, maybe Hollywood can come up with a new genre called The Other Side or TOS. It’d be like examining the dark side of the moon.

The Other Side or TOS would revisit the big successful movies but from the other side, that of the antagonists.

Take THE GODFATHER parts I and II. They are about the Corleones. But the Other Side versions could show us the story from the side of the Turk, the Irish cop, Barzini, Moe Green, and Hyman Roth.

And the TOS version of THE GRADUATE can stick with Mrs. Robinson and her side of the story.

And the TOS version of THE EXORCIST can see the world from the POV of the devil.

miscellaneous stuff: 1) I am reading Jacob Burckardt on the Greeks. Don’t know what kind of critical standing he has today.

But apropos the theme discussed earlier on how much the Ancient Greeks held on to their myths, B. says that they held onto them for a very long time, reaching deep into the Hellenistic period. He has a whole chapter on it, which might help to account for Roman adoption of them.

2) Upon further reflection on Mr. Karlin’s ethnic origins, I now see why he is obsessed with the Balkans, etc and their lower IQs.

He gets furious when I suggest, common sensically, that the near proximity of Asia Minor and The Arabs probably accounts for it. This also explains his rage about Richard Lynn’s IQ figures.

Also the Northern Ice Age Thesis which he abominates but suggest nothing to replace it, also leaves Asia Minor, along with the Arabs too long in the sunshine, with no natural selection due to harsh weather.

His magian (magic ) beliefs I discovered and reported above, pretty much tells the tale. The Tale is that Whites stink and Asians are great.

His general demeanor here is that of Oriental Despotism.

Joe Webb

IIRC quite a fraction of the male Athenian population had to work on the farms and could rarely take part in the more cerebral life of the city center. The sort of people who could attend the Academy were presumably scions of relatively wealthy citizens and likely to be smarter than the average in the first place.

I think it’s possible that the population as a whole might not have been especially cleverer than the people around them, but that the city acted as a sort of university campus, concentrating the smartest fraction of the population and giving them relatively free time. The duller portion of the gene pool would have been out tilling and harvesting.

I looked up Duchesne’s work, and I have to say it isn’t entirely different from how Joe Webb presents it. His iteration seems particularly cartoonish, but the general gist of Duchesne isn’t radically different. What I find most questionable is the fixation on Greek prowess deriving from the ancient Indo-Europeans themselves, which I’ve found is a rather fantastical narrative I’ve seen in white nationalist (which Duchesne seems sympathetic towards) historical narratives. I’m curious how, if the Greeks represented something derived from earlier Indo-European behavior, why so many other Indo-European cultures and civilizations, including the Persians, differed so much. I think Iran today is held back largely due to Islam, but there are other Indo-European countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan that are vastly more backwards and dysfunctional (really the worst parts of the eurasian muslim world), and would likely still be in large part if it was replaced with christianity today. I’m not saying they were just like this even further in the past, but it doesn’t preclude other factors back then (and before Islam) that ultimately disposed them towards their current state, and whether “Indo-European culture” is something so dynamic and unique.

Joe Webb seems to be ignoring me in large part due to me using a naughty word/having a potty mouth while taking up a passive-aggressive pearl clutching routine (relentlessly calling the chinese “chinks” and talking how he could easily beat me up), but even if he wasn’t, I’d prefer someone else to elucidate this.

not censored, another mistake on my part to add to my long list.

Joe Webb

correction: clumsy sentence on Gould. The lies were in his book, that Morton lied about cranium measurements of blacks and whites about 100 years ago. The scientific team re- measured Morton’s skulls and found that he did not lie, or even make mistakes with his crude by our standards…cutting holes in skulls… and pouring seed or shot into the craniums..

reasonable point. The Japanese who have probably assimilated as much as they can, and are as smart as us and chinks, still are collectivistic/family oriented. They do not participate in politics, like other Asians, except to somewhat get into the spoils game and almost always vote Democratic.
Then there are the multiple China towns without much assimilation that I can see, and when they do assimilate or sorts, it is always along racial alliance lines,…the Dem. Party again.

That is what comes from a splintered ethnic character in any society.

I recommend again, Robert Putnam’s Diversity and Community in the 21st century…the US.

Putnam was and probably is a liberal…..Harvard sociology Prof, etc. He Thought he was going to prove that Diversity Makes Us Stronger. This was about 2008. Read it, it is short.

Because he did not find what he was looking for he sat on the study until he was outed.
Big study with Ha -vad money. ( Liberals always lie, per the stated policy of NYT with regard to blacks , not fit to print bad news about the downtrodden.)

Results were that on every measure of trust, everybody was dramatically less trusting in the diverse communities and dramatically more trusting in the racially homogenous communities.
One of the more salient bits was this: trust in one’s own race was severely degraded. Sound familiar?

We know who led the intellectual assault on racial inequality, and lied their way to the bitter semi-end, right now. The thing is blowing up in their faces. Too bad Gould (the ghoul) was not alive to face his lies exposed in The Mismeasurement of Man, by a scientific team last year (I think).

What I have suggested in general here the last few days, is that Duchesne offers an explanation of how Whites became who we are (he overlooks altruism, but that could be added to the list of virtues of a prestige based intersubjectivity).

The other guys here go ape, and perseverate on economics, and forget freedom, a white trait.
All I have done is suggest an Answer and to date no other Answer has been forthcoming from the opposition. Just fits and calls for my figurative blood.

Yes I am a White racist. Did not start out that way; started out marching with MLK and then kept an eye on things for a long time what with family, job, other interests, etc. About 50 years of age, when I became financially independent, I started to read about things that I did not understand very well. Voila! The world is racist. That is just the way we are. I am surprised that some of the HBD folks find that hard to digest.

Withtout any doubt now, I understand where Karlin is coming from….the Turkic Asia. No chance of objectivity. And then there is his Russian cosmism. ( I think my post on that was just censored.)

Joe Webb

here is wiki:

“Russian cosmism was a philosophical and cultural movement that emerged in Russia in the early 20th century. It entailed a broad theory of natural philosophy, combining elements of religion and ethics with a history and philosophy of the origin, evolution and future existence of the cosmos and humankind. It combined elements from both Eastern and Western philosophic traditions as well as from the Russian Orthodox Church.”

Cosmism was one of the influences on Proletkult, and after the October Revolution,…”

So the Bolsheviks got into it too…this is crazy stuff, totally crazy, ergo…

Joe Webb

To Anatoly. please forgive me for googling you to ascertain maybe why you are so unwhite in your behavior.

This is what you said, apparently your own words; please correct me if that is not true.

( somewhat influenced by)…”the Orthodox Church, my philosophy and spiritual views are more influenced by digital physics, Gnosticism, and Russian cosmism than anything specifically Judeo-Christian.”

First, I know nothing about digital physics, but I know that it has nothing to with humans.
Second, Gnosticism includes the belief that one is part of God (sounds about right for you ) and that the world is actually ruled by some kind of nasty god (that would be me and White guys I guess…you do not look White/Russian, you are probably tartar, turkic). Gnosticism also believes in a “saving remnant.” That would be you too I guess.

Second, Russian cosmos, whatever that is, sounds bizarre to me, but could also explain your behavior. You are not White, you are a Turk of sorts and probably a muzzie actually.

Joe Webb

He lasted a bit less than one year on the job and quit. He was disgusted with chink behavior, could not believe how bad they were in everything.

White boy go to East to make fortune and run into chink reality.

Okay, but what is being said about the Chinese this generation are not that different from how Korean were described a generation or two ago. And the Japanese (I might presume) further generations back.

Try thinking wide and long term. Not just what you see now.

I think most people have an atrocious understanding of what “collectivism” in asian societies looks like.

What is further funny is that Europeans are “individualistic” while E. Asians are “conformist”. In other words, the euphemism of the independent, self-determined, free man is contrasted with the disphemism of subjection, limitation and restriction. But rather than “conformist”, why not “cooperative”? “Social”? And other euphemisms instead?

Or it could merely be that the tipping point for East Asians to switch to an alphabet is higher than for Europeans and Middle Easterners. Hence they didn’t do so until economic catch-up and nationalism became driving factors.

I think that’s an overcomplicated and convoluted theory. The plausible and simple answer is that the early invention and use of Chinese writing made the cost of switching high.

so you tell me that the conversations that I had with two chinese gals did not happen , or are untrue, or that I am a liar.

I believe you, but it’s not meaningful. The sentiments expressed are cliche and trite because women who tell you that their men suck are no different qualitatively from women who tell you that all men suck. These women are essentially broken.

I never said the chinkss were like the jews. They are worse.

Yes, I know you said that. And it’s an obtuse opinion based on shallow observations.

don’t know where you live but where I live amongst the liberals of Silicon Valley, who all intensely dislike the chinese,….they all say the same thing about the chink, rude, arrogant , greedy , and money money money. I hear it all the time. No jew would behave like they do around here. My personal experiences with them ditto…rude, arrogant and bad manners even like picking nose in public and head slopping up soup.

As I said, don’t confuse what immigrants do with culture. In fact, don’t confuse what any segment of the population do, particularly one just a generation removed from communism and abject poverty, with “culture”.

please quote something that suggests Universalism in their scribbling.

I’m sure you’ve heard of Confucius. (“Do unto others…”?)

Confucianism is predicated on universalist ethics between human to human without regard to peculiar tribe, religion or gods.

Intersubjectivity I think comes from the master-slave problem that Hegel wrote about, and maybe Weber as well. The master has no intersubjectivity with his slave. It is relationship devoid of the I-Thou, or friendly mutuality. Intersubjectivity means that two people recognize a rough equality between them and proceed to enjoy one-another’s company, ideas, experiences, etc. It is an intimacy outside of family life. It is a Greek polis kind of political intersubjectivity in political matters. It is also based on the fundamental of the human desire for prestige. Prestige requires someone whom you care about to give it to you…a relative equal.

And the Chinese lack this sentiment? Chinese don’t have intimacy outside family? Chinese don’t seek prestige from those they care about? Chinese do not understand the concept of peers and equals? Are the Chinese even fully human in your view?

The Chinese care what their friends and others think. In fact, they care a lot. The Chinese are hyper “prestige” seekers.

For the chink, it is all top down, or bottom up. There is no equality in this sense. The political in Chinese life is top down. It is the conflating of family life with political life, which destroys political life and leads to Confucianist obedience, if not obeisance to the Big Man.

No, of course the Chinese have peer to peer relationships. (Need this be stated?)

The political life of the Chinese can be whatever they choose it to be. There is nothing hardgrained in culture or genes that predisposes them to despotic tyranny.

S.Korea is the most Confucian society and yet they arguably have the most vibrant democracy in Asia despite the obstacles they had to overcome to attain it.

Corrupted Confucianism can lead to oppressive obedience and obeisance but that’s certainly not the norm that should be adhered to.

If you cannot see this, you are some kind of specialist in chinkdom that cannot see the forest for the trees…apologist is the word.

I think you’re seeing the trees for the forest.

I’m pretty confident that the children and grandchildren of 1st gen. Chinese immigrants from the poorest parts of China will not be picking their noses in public.

one other thing: an old friend, junior to me by a generation, spent some time learning enough Chinese to go to China and work in a shoe factory. He is a sweet guy, very liberal in the older sense of the term. This was about 25 years ago.

He lasted a bit less than one year on the job and quit. He was disgusted with chink behavior, could not believe how bad they were in everything.

White boy go to East to make fortune and run into chink reality.

Anecdotal…of course. I have never heard a positive story about them. ( If you have a chink professional working for you, they are on their best behavior.) I have since gotten a new broker and MD…it is a Trust issue.

Joe Webb

China…”…had no feudalism in the European sense, had much less in the way of internal barriers, was run by a professional bureaucracy when even countries like Britain continuing selling posts into the 19th century.”

This is exactly the point that Duchesne makes, that Feudalism was a system of , shall we say, checks and balances against totalitarian control from the top.

Your argument seems to be libertarian in the economic sense, that China had a nice bureaucracy that kept the economy flowing along nicely. Sounds just like today.

The centrality of Duchesne’s argument is that White society/history since early Indo-European, and Greco-Roman, and German times was never Tyranny, in general. That tyrants were always opposed, and that what guaranteed this relative “democracy” of intermediate layers of authority between the bottom and the top of these White societies was a , yes, genetic condition determined by the psychology of “prestige” which developed with the Indo-European warrior aristoctatic/egalitarian culture of fighters.

The aristocratic/egalitarianism sounds contradictory, but it is not, given the psychodynamics of same: the need for relative equals to appreciate and grant one prestige..

Now this is what Duchesne says, and I think it is very interesting and worthy of discussion. But you guys are just flipping out and throwing tantrums, and, O wishing that I be terminated. I think you have been in China too long.

As I said before you cannot see the forest for the trees. And you also appear to be libertarian, which is a White curse…too much like the chinks…money, money , money.

You also flip out over my observations of what the local chinks are like. I don’t have any relations with them except for a broker and a MD, and they are ok, although the broker, like the broken white broker I know, is only interested in money, and likes to go on anti-semitic trips.

I live in Silicon Valley. I talk to lots of people with my big mouth and big smile that gets very good mileage out of folks’s opinions. Without exception, the many (liberal) whites i have talked to all say the same thing, that the chinks are terrible: rudeness is first, and then greedy, then ostentatious consumerism, and then generally one-dimensional…repeating myself…money.

Palo Alto is now about one-third chink, one quarter Jew, and the rest I guess are White liberals.

The Jews are noticing. One jewish guy who has hated my guts stopped me recently and asked what I thought of the chinks. He was past his earlier hatred, and grinned when I said, not much.

Joe Webb

[I mean you’re real good a lot but sometimes sound like a lady]

Priss grew up amongst Jews :=)

I think most people have an atrocious understanding of what “collectivism” in asian societies looks like. That they lack introspection or curiosity or any sort of individuality- it really couldn’t be further from the truth. That’s somewhat of a different matter from what you’re asking though, and I don’t know why you’d ask. Of course they’d think it’s almost entirely genetic, and in large part due to what agriculture they practiced millenia ago.

The way they deliver those responses would be different though. Jayman would just repeat one of his talking points and link to 3 of his blog posts, where he’d have the excuse to get prissy and ban happy if you slight him in some way. HBD Chick would also repeat talking points and link to blog posts, only delivered in a cutesy, saccharine style that’s supposed to be inviting and accommodating (but is really just insufferable).

“of course it’s genetic! different peoples is different. ~_^”

But they still generally lack these alleles. These cognitive barriers should still be present in some way because they still lack the genetics for it. When they took to it, they took to it with no problem and have no problems now. I don’t think any asians who grow up with using non-hangul alphabets have any problems using them any more so than non-asians. The linking I’ve seen of these alleles to language and alphabetic usage is one of the stranger HBD theories I’ve seen. I don’t think these alleles have anything to do with cognition. They to this day have never been linked to anything, after 10 years. The hysteria many people had over them should have viewed as an embarrassment for HBD.

tbh, I have half-formed views and wait for Priss’ response (or yours as well. btw I have been re-reading M&Walt and marking to reality some of mine, and their conclusions.

Great questions and observations, Sam. I look forward to Priss’ responses.

Pending that, I was wondering if you too would be wiling to provide responses to your own questions and observations.

Priss,
In my reckoning you are among the very few commentators on UR with truly original insight. Which is why I am going to ask a few questions and offer a few observations:

(1) Q: Do you subscribe to Realpolitik, and realise that Alt-Right Isolationist viewpoint, as advanced by the likes of Pat Buchanan (who btw, I feel is a sincere man) miss the boat?

(2) Obs: Jews in the U.S. by and large are a cohesive group, although frequently marrying outside the community, tend to be far better educated than the median and therefore place themselves in positions of financial and political power.

(3) Obs: Jewish intellectuals, including the top scientists have been largely irreligious, and in most instances drawn inspiration and training from ancient Greek and European Renaissance traditions.

(4) Q: Do you see Israel as an important chess piece (perhaps the Knight) on the middle section of the global chessboard, one which has been played on for the better part of half a millennium?

(5) Q: In your ideal world, what would you have Jews do in the U.S. and elsewhere?

Well, nutjob, you really lived up to your name since you ignored virtually every qualification I put in my message. I made it clear that my conclusion (“this indicates”) was not based simply on the link to the Laconians. Go back and reread my message.

So is the lack of individualism in Confucian societies due to HDB factors? Or purely cultural in nature? Would Jayman and HDBchick have a different answer?

Joseph Needham: Science and Civilisation of China

Robert Temple: The Genius of China

You’re welcome! ^-^

Comparing the ‘great works’ artifacts in the British Museum, I remember being struck by how the Greeks were clearly on a completely different level from the Assyrians, Egyptians, Persians – or the Celt & Germanic barbarians. I don’t know it it’s raw IQ, though I suspect that density of high IQ was a factor. I do wonder if Greek infanticide may have been more common than elsewhere, with a lower population density & greater eugenic effect. In any case, something unique happened there, as unique as the Industrial Revolution in Britain & NW Europe 2300 years later.

Too many points here and too few time…[sigh]

but Anatoly, if you take every words for granted from an archaeologist and historian like Ian Morris and a political scientist like Murray on China ,

( look like two seriously authentic China experts here, with credentials that neither could even say “hello” and “goodbye” in Mandarin, let alone writing down these “little mental challenges” – btw in comparison, since Panda can not only read & write English, and German, and Italian, and… but also read and write even notes from Shakespear to Verdi to Newton to Nietzsche to Oxford, that certainly qualifies Panda as the authority of European historic achievements 1,000 friggin times more credible than Murray and Morris do on China, doesn’t it? ROFL)

then why don’t you also have an open mind by taking a look at an historian , philosoper like Robert Temple who happened to have lived and worked in China as the similar function speaking some Mandarin, at least hello and goodbye, or a scientist, historian and mandarin-speaking sinologist like Joseph Needham?

Joseph Needham

Robert Temple

You’re welcome! ^-^

Han China Vs Roman Empire?

ROFL!

The evidences are all over the wall for anyone with a shred of honesty, an average intellect or above and curiosity to do an independent google research:

1. Social economical structure: master-slave & foreign legion society (Roman empire) Vs. unified society (by and large one language, one culture, one land, one people) of landlord-freely employed peasantry ( Han)

BTW, most of imperial China’s history was actually not “feudal”, which came as the closest Western language translation and a misnomer by the Western historian society vis-à-vis the true feudal nature of the West at a time. For the majority of the last 2,000 years, the advanced nature of imperial China’s social economical structure (aka unified society of landlord-freely employed peasantry with free and fair meritocratic upward movement opportunities at any time for all male adults within the empire regardless of social/economical/bloodline classes each was born into . So take a peek at the true master of freedom , “democratic” Greece & Rome! ROFL) was centuries if not tens of centuries ahead of its time. The West didn’t match and truly surpass this advancement until the post WW2 era – friggin 2,000 years later.

2. Population size & avg IQ – the underlying productive size of economy : … Panda is lazy here, but isn’t that obvious?

3. (high) technologies :

The one with the strongest & the most advanced military high tech has always been the the most technologically advanced society in the history, because military tech has been in almost all cases where one puts whatever at his disposal all in ( top human resources, finance, all civil sector engineering inventions & spin-offs etc) to ultimately safeguard its national defence and survival. Han’s military tech Vs Roman military tech is a bit like today’s the United States Vs. OPEC of the Gulf States – NON-comparable really.

The quality and quantity of weaponries of Han’s individual soldier , heavy infantry, heavy archery , heavy cavalry, size of the army, leadership, military training & disciplines, organisation setup (also refer to Panda’s point 1 earlier) , logistics , underlying economy ( re-production capacity , point 2) are nothing, not even comparable, that Roman Empire could match eye-to-eye with its noblemen elite legion+ losse cannon far less trained and motivated hired foreign legions with shorter and weaker bronze swords, poor quality shields or the lack thereof, very static & predictable tortoise tactics, compete lack of heavy archery and cavalry (remember the Han?… the Huns? / Attila?…the Goths?… Rome? … Can you connect the dots yourself for once without the help of Panda? LoL)…

In shorts, Han Empire had “nukes” at a time —> mass and dedicated army of semi-automatic crossbows (check out its genius trigger mechanism, the aerodynamic parabolic design & material quality of modern-bullet-like arrow heads; the sheer mass-production quantity & Toyota-factory–alike quality control process of both of them, which made mythic Antikytera mechanism like a one-off Lost-Atlantis museum piece that has never been proven in use in either civil let alone military sector in a meaningful way) of all sizes. Their destruction power wasn’t matched by the West until Napoleonic Wars 1,700 years later (if measured by size of deployment), and until the emergence of the modern rifle even much later ( if measured by destruction/armour-piecing power and kill accuracy).

Does Terracotta Army sound new to you? Take a good look at this and think over about what does it mean really:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516445/Terracotta-Army-awesome-fighting-machine-weapons-powerful-kill-enemy-single-arrow.html

More on Antikytera mechanism:
30 or so pieces, yep, big deal. Now google up “Qin Dynasty Terracotta Army bronze chariots” and read into them. Those 2 life-size bronze chariots unearthed were assembled together by 8,000 standard *pieces! *standard means designed to be mass-produced in a production line.

Terracotta Army was only of earlier Qin Empire, now imagine friggin blast furnace steel-wielding further consolidated & unified Han Empire.

This is even before Panda gets a bit of time here to formally introduce you to the Art of War (Sun Tzu)of Han, if you want to venture into leadership, organisation, training, motivation, discipline, logistics, tactics and strategies…

I guess Anatoly long ago eschewed any objectivity, since in his blogroll, he refers to two people (though endearingly) as “shitlords.” And you continue to trawl out comments against me even though I sunk to the incomparable low of using a dirty word, which you repeatedly make over. This in face of you constantly using racial slurs and on top of the many, many other bizarre, malicious things you’ve said on this site.

And is this a veiled threat?

“what’s your point? you make no argument, only go ballistically ad hominem. Woody Woodpecker laughter. By the way, because I am old (74) you throw that at me you little punk. I could take care of you in less than ten seconds in all probability.”

My estimate of 80 isn’t way off- according to his 2012 book, Albania’s IQ is 82, and marginally higher for Montenegro and Bosnia, and all of which are lower than Turkey:
Which is really strange in face of how he can’t seem to fathom a reason for the balkans as having lower IQ’s other than Turkish admixture (which you seem to be partial towards.) Is that why they (though they also have it in common with Russia) don’t follow the eternal European drive towards endlessly resisting tyranny?

And looking at that map… only 3 European countries are at or above an IQ of 100 in reality. Do you actually believe this?

“I never said that potty mouth. I merely threw that in since it appeared here at Unz and it does support the general argument about western individualism. It was on bio-cultural co-evolution, about how rice agriculture demands regimentation and extreme collectivism, as opposed to the individualistic wheat growers of the West, who did not have much need to cooperate.”

And I never flat out accused you of that either. I was reiterating the gist of the argument (which you variously seemed partial towards.) If you don’t believe that, why have Indo-Europeans (or just whites, I’m not sure) been partial towards an endless, universal feedback of “artistocratic warriors” resisting tyranny forever?

I have no interest in silencing your free speech or siding with “THE CHINKS!!!” in doing so- that’s just a paranoia of yours.

Though do tell me (a “hater)” how “the chinks”, including Japan, are incapable of democracy (and how Japan is secretly not one).

“PISA tests.”

Which aren’t IQ tests, and haven’t been proved as such aside from Lynn and co’s circle who are convinced they are.

“Actually the example of Korea is one of the strongest pieces of evidence for it.

Here was Sejong the Great trying to implement an explicitly progressive reform – in the founding document of the Hangul, it is written “a wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days” – and yet in practice the Chinese character system continued to dominate until the turn of the 20th century.”

And yet… they adopted it, and they’ve shown no signs of having any issues with it since they did so. They went out of their way to invent a remarkably efficient alphabet, arguably the most efficient in the world, but it didn’t catch on for a few centuries. Ergo, this is prime evidence an allele or two are the reason.

Maybe it was something else?

Genetic explanations for asians using inefficient alphabets have little basis, especially on the basis of an allele or two that many “race realists” and HBDers refuse to let go of.

pardon me, but is that all you got? Duchesne points out that you guys who hate Eurocentrism are economistic, like most of the Left of Old. Now what about freedom, that quaint old white guys, mostly dead I guess now, obsession. Individual assertion, individual action at all levels, with no statist interference/mediation/control…. how about freedom of religion, not state religion, etc.?

Also the intermediate classes, guilds that you appear to denigrate, between the lower orders and the King/Emperor. Free speech? assembly, petition, assembly, . Duchesne also states that the printing press was never pressed…into service for newspapers, etc. in China.

Freedom….Nope. Regimentation and totalitarianism , which as we can see now is quite compatible with the Liberal Order of globalism and the rest of the economism of today.

Joe Webb

[AK: Freedom of religion in Europe > China? LOL. Pointless to argue further. Comments like these really make me wish Unz could introduce a Disqus-like upvote/downvote feature so that crap like this gets sifted to the bottom]

what’s your point? you make no argument, only go ballistically ad hominem. Woody Woodpecker laughter. By the way, because I am old (74) you throw that at me you little punk. I could take care of you in less than ten seconds in all probability.

I got 20 plus year olds after me and for that you resent… you have no argument, you are a reenter. I am ripe, and enjoy myself now that I have figured it all out.
The gals are attracted to that and my blonde hair of course, and pretty fit.

Joe Webb

fair enough in general. KM is far more ecumenical than I am. GJ of Counter-Currents is a psychopath in my personal experience. The Hitler worship that is around to some degree in WN is part of the territory, too bad, but that is politics. I don’t think KM cares much about art.

Darkmoon I do not see anymore at TOO, is she still there. Overboard I agree. Bowden’s art is junk to me but he was a great orator.

The Lynch stuff, the Donovan stuff…I neither care for, nor endorse. By the way, if you have not read Roger Devlin’s anti-femi “Sexual Utopia in Power,” take a look, it’s a romp.

Are you a women or not? I mean you’re real good a lot but sometimes sound like a lady.

Joe Webb

Dippy….”So let me get this straight- Europeans are the “only “Free” people genetically” because of what agriculture they practiced thousands of years ago, and this is evidenced by the Greeks.”

I never said that potty mouth. I merely threw that in since it appeared here at Unz and it does support the general argument about western individualism. It was on bio-cultural co-evolution, about how rice agriculture demands regimentation and extreme collectivism, as opposed to the individualistic wheat growers of the West, who did not have much need to cooperate.

You cannot get anything straight dippy. I offered up Duchesne’s schema of what the ethnic antecedents of the White race were. I also described his sense of the Indo-Europeans as prestige driven, like in the Iliad, and that that psychological drive led to individualism and intersubjectivity which is dependent on having friends of an egalitarian nature. This led to aristocracy as a general trend in the West, which resisted Kings and autocrats. This fed right into Feudalism, free cities, and representative bodies intermediate with kings or popes. In fact, fed right into magna carta, etc. and the free speech that you would deny me cuz I don’t care for chink despotism.

The rest of the world has autocrats, dictators, kings, emperors, etc…..even today. This is not very hard to understand if you take the time. But you are a hater. Tough, and brush your potty mouth. The chinks by the way are incapable of democracy, even Japan but another story.

Joe Webb

Dippy…your facts are in deficit, or decrepitude, or disinformational . Also, your use of the word “shit” disqualified you from objectivity.

Your….”would have helped to mention those scores for the “balkan backwaters”- the low to mid 80′s, with Albania being at 80.” is way off.

Lynn gives the Balkans around 90- 92 , not mid-80s, and Albania 90, not 80 you idiot.

Joe Webb

Richard Lynn give Greece an average score of 92. Turkey’s is 90, and the Balkans are around 90 as well. This is due to muslim/arab penetration, so to speak, of the Greeks and southern Europeans generally. I think Lynn’s new book which is hard to find, gives southern Italy about 95.

Genotypically, the darker, the dumber, with exceptions of course. I have a darker type Greek friend who could pass for a wild muzzie when bearded. He’s got a PhD in math and works at Apple. Also has a great temperament. His mother looks like a Brit, his father like an Italian. both are professionals.

As i have stated many times, the Arab IQ is in the low 80s. Egypt at 81 (proximate to African negroes) and other arab states at @ 84. Ditto Iran at 84, and Iraq at 87.

People get around, and as a friend of mine puts it: people fornicate, like dogs.

Joe Webb

the answer is the bell curve nature. The top 5 % or so of a bell curve of 80 will still provide enough smart people to do building , etc.
Joe Webb

so you tell me that the conversations that I had with two chinese gals did not happen , or are untrue, or that I am a liar.

you need a boxing lesson, I will give you one.

I never said the chinkss were like the jews. They are worse. don’t know where you live but where I live amongst the liberals of Silicon Valley, who all intensely dislike the chinese,….they all say the same thing about the chink, rude, arrogant , greedy , and money money money. I hear it all the time. No jew would behave like they do around here. My personal experiences with them ditto…rude, arrogant and bad manners even like picking nose in public and head slopping up soup.

The Japs call them pigs. AS I am always interested in being instructed, please quote something that suggests Universalism in their scribbling.

I guess that is why they went insular, right?

Intersubjectivity I think comes from the master-slave problem that Hegel wrote about, and maybe Weber as well. The master has no intersubjectivity with his slave. It is relationship devoid of the I-Thou, or friendly mutuality. Intersubjectivity means that two people recognize a rough equality between them and proceed to enjoy one-another’s company, ideas, experiences, etc. It is an intimacy outside of family life. It is a Greek polis kind of political intersubjectivity in political matters. It is also based on the fundamental of the human desire for prestige. Prestige requires someone whom you care about to give it to you…a relative equal.

For the chink, it is all top down, or bottom up. There is no equality in this sense. The political in Chinese life is top down. It is the conflating of family life with political life, which destroys political life and leads to Confucianist obedience, if not obeisance to the Big Man.

If you cannot see this, you are some kind of specialist in chinkdom that cannot see the forest for the trees…apologist is the word.

Joe Webb

“First off, there is no particularly obvious explanation for why this part of the Mediterranean world evolved such a high average IQ – a standard deviation higher than everyone else – in the first place. One would then likewise have to explain why they then lost it so thoroughly that modern Greeks now consistently place lower in European IQ assessments than all but a few Balkan backwaters.”

A better question is “why has Greece’s accomplishment gradually declined”, since it was the heart of the Byzantine Empire, which had more than it’s share of accomplishments (something people often overlook in these discussions.) Greece’s mediocrity is more of a feature of the past few centuries, and I doubt it’s due anything to mixing with Turks (which also didn’t really happen.)

There’s no good evidence to suggest Greece’s IQ is low or that they’re any lower than the rest of Europe, or especially that there’s Balkan countries with a lower IQ. The figure for Greece is supposed to be 92, and it would have helped to mention those scores for the “balkan backwaters”- the low to mid 80′s, with Albania being at 80. They’re just more worthless figures Richard Lynn shit out. They’re not worth any consideration.

“However, there might also be an HBD angle. Peter Frost has suggested the spread of the ASPM gene from Middle Eastern origins – large lacking in East Asians, and associated with continuous text processing – could have tipped the scales in favor of the adoption of alphabetic systems in the Near East and the Mediterranean in a way that could not have happened in East Asia. (Note that Korea’s Sejong the Great introduced an alphabetic system in the 15th century, for the express reason of increasing literacy amongst the commonfolk, but it took until the 20th century for it to truly catch on).”

Uh, I think Korea’s example would be a counter against this. They invented what’s probably the most efficient alphabet of all time, and when they took to it, they took it with little issue. Peter’s idea is pretty nonsensical, and is really just an attempt to preserve* the honestly insane reaction to the APSM alleles. (“These are alleles of two genes involved in brain function, and they fit some rough racial and historical patterns…. THIS HAS TO EXPLAIN EVERYTHING!”)

*I’ve seen someone try to reconcile the fact it has some of it’s highest frequencies in PNG with how some PNG tries built high treehouses and a comment Lahn made about it being possibly related to craftsmanship. Suuuuuuure.

I somehow overlooked this post (and other bowel movements of yours.) Let’s try to run this down:

“Duchesne does not make the wheat vs. rice argument. That was the topic of an article here at Unz a few months ago, and it makes perfect hbd sense. Bio-cultural co-evolution. not that that is the whole story”

“HIs argument is ultimately socio -biological arguing that what explains western rationality and individualism is rooted in the three peoples who came together to make up the White race: near eastern farmers, Indo-Europeans, and northern hunter gatherers (Europe).”

“If you think that China etc are not oriental despotisms, please make your argument. So far you have not. Culture exists, religion exists, and race exists. The only Free people genetically are Whites. Our record of insisting on liberty and free speech goes back to Greece and before that to the Indo-Euopreans and, for example, to The Iliad, which I just re-read.”

So let me get this straight- Europeans are the “only “Free” people genetically” because of what agriculture they practiced thousands of years ago, and this is evidenced by the Greeks. I’ll get more on that with the rest of your post, but I don’t know what other “oriental despotisms” you’re thinking of other than China. Singapore is authoritarian, but nothing like China. North Korea is cartoonish in it’s extremity, but then there’s South Korea. Taiwan and Hong Kong are nothing like mainland China, nor are nearly all the other Chinese diaspora throughout the world. And Japan, well, that kind of goes without saying (not a despotism by any means.)

“These aristocratic warriors, had a first-among-equals social psychology. Equals in this case means someone with whom one can have mutuality and common understanding or intersubjectivity, which is a great term!. It has never been tyranny, except occasionally which was then resisted or overthrown. ( China was always without nobility , just a subservient confucian civil service…dead in the flow of history so to speak.)”

“The East has none of this. Zero. which is one of the reasons, besides low IQ outside of east Asia, they are mired in despotic social relations…family, clan, strong-man rulers, Kings, etc. The aristocratic warrior societies resisted kingship, which has been part of our whole history…as you know in feudal times the kings were always resisted by nobles/aristocracy. Everywhere else in the world there was not similar multi-layered, relative “pluralism” of mixed powers. This led to the free cities, etc. of the middle ages, etc.”

You have an absolutely cartoon version of European history. “Tyranny” and other forms of authoritarianism have occurred throughout European history, and have not readily disappeared by the relentless efforts of “aristocratic warriors” or the overwhelming dislike of the populace. Greece long consisted of conflicting, warring city-states. Slavery was found throughout. Even Plato’s work had authoritarian/totalitarian ideals. And you had places like Sparta that eschewed art and countless other pursuits and were completely sociopathic in nature (for how you complain about infanticide in China, look at what Sparta did.) What did the rest of Europe look like throughout this time? Aside from the south, it consisted overwhelmingly of tribal peoples with virtually no urbanization to speak of, and the Greeks and Romans often looked down upon them. Nevermind the well documented decline in violence throughout Europe going back centuries, or how backwards some parts of Europe still are- you’d even see horrible treatment of animals on a fairly large scale (see cat burnings in France) even a few centuries ago. There’s much more that could be said, but your model of “aristocratic warrior societies” always resisting purely anomalous tyrannies has not been a timeless feature of European history, much less “Indo-European history.”

And there’s that line I see often in these circles- “Asians are completely without individuality and introspection and care nothing more about a shallow, extreme conformity.” I don’t know- clinical depression is rampant in China, east asia in general is characterized by some of the world’s highest suicide rates and are overwhelmingly tied to various crushing social conditions in modern east asia that are roughly outgrowths of this “conformity”, nevermind how communism came about by a brutal civil war in China followed by dictatorship and genocide, and there were those massive pro-democracy demonstrations in China that had to be violently put down and covered up, and Taiwan has been doing fine as a democracy for some time now…

I won’t deny modern mainland chinese exhibit deplorable social etiquette- but I think there’s more than enough evidence to suggest that (among many other things, as I outlined in my other post) is largely social in nature. I mean, it’s kind of hard to get around how Chinese tourists are looked down in Thailand, which is poorer and of lower IQ than China, despite Thailand having a large Chinese population, and the Thais themselves being of heavy Chinese ancestry: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/asia/thailand/11416014/Thailand-issues-good-behaviour-manual-for-Chinese-tourists.html

By the way, you mentioned the “other Indo-Europeans”- that’s a huge, huge collection of people. Why do so many of them today barely resemble Europe in living standards and so many other things?

And honestly, keep throwing around “chink” like you do- I know this place has atrocious moderation, but if that’s what it will take to get you banned, I’m all for it.

“and jew IQ appears to be 110 average…ashkenazis. In Israel all the jews are somewhat dumber, especially the arab jews. Semites are desert people and their tribal tendencies are pronounced probably due to running around with their sheep and goats and invading one-another for thousands of years. Pastoralists ….we were also pastoralists as Indo-Europeans…and that made us tougher…another story.”

Ah yeah… tribalists vs. the good old pastoralists… aka the new HBD autism of boiling down everything to what form of agriculture was practiced thousands of years ago (it’s better than the “ice age climates” theory, but still). No, I’m pretty sure that many of the “tribal” tendencies we see in the middle east are heavily due to Islam and the tendencies arising from it that have been ingrained since then, genetically and culturally, and made them less amenable to the changes we’ve seen over the centuries in Europe and East Asia. “Semites” often haven’t been nomadic, there were settled, literate civilizations in southern arabia long before Islam, nevermind what you can find throughout the middle east going back millenia before. Or why so many middle eastern people, semitic or not, have these tendencies and behaviors. Look at Albania- it’s one of the most backwards parts of Europe, and one of the only majority muslim European countries. Do you think their backwardness and inability to modernize might be in large part due to that?

“The Chinese, like the jews get focused on making money, we see it here where I live in Silicon Valley. The difference would seem to be that jews use money for power. Chinks use money for money. But because there are a billion plus of them, their political power will come no matter what. They are a disaster already starting to happen and if we do not stop their immigration they will smother us. They are politically totalitarian, and lack “intersubjectivity” in personal relationships, something that whites have and jews have amongst themselves (I think).

Their selfishness is pronounced, even their women opportunistically out-marry to whites big time. Of course, this may be due to how bad they are treated by their men. I have been told by two different chink gals that “white guys treat you better.” Never mind the sexual aspects.

Total opportunists. look at the chink infanticide of females…still going on probably. The yellow peril will make the jews look like a picnic.”

Here’s roughly how I read this part:

“Chinks, they’re just like jews…. Money is all they care about… There’s over a billion of the chinks, there’s a new yellow peril coming… Authoritarianism is in their blood, they lack even the “intersubjectivity” jews and whites share… But we’ve also been weakened by the jews, it’s in their blood, to destroy everything we have… Now you may think the chinks and their modern pathologies, including their infanticide of little chinkettes is due to things like their civil war which they lost to communists… atrocities on the part of the japanese… the cultural revolution that intentionally targeted traditional institutions and values and killed tens of millions… subsequent isolationism… continued authoritarianism… migrations entailing hundreds of millions of people… and even other things in the past few centuries like the taiping rebellion, or even further back like the mongol conquests which retarded near every place they went… and just how cripplingly overpopulated china has been for so long… or how near-every other place inhabited by the chinese is nothing like mainland China… But no, I’ve had a few chink girls come up to me and say how much better white men treat women… Nevermind the beauty of the aryan, from everything to skin to hair and eye color, which they could clearly see in a 70-something like me…”