Joshua Fields Millburn Of The Minimalists Lives A Deliberate Life With Less

We are creatures wired to crave and consume for the sake of survival. So in a modern world that exploits our instincts and offers infinite access to fulfill those urges, how do we know when to stop? Look up from your iPhone and take a quick look around. Then ask yourself: Does all the stuff surrounding me add to my happiness? Or am I, at least in part, succumbing to the delusion that consumerism defines contentment?

Asking these questions proved pivotal for childhood friends Joshua Fields Millburn and Ryan Nicodemus. Until then, both thought they had finally neared the Utopian promise of the American Dream. Approaching 30, they had gathered all the stuff that high-paying jobs can provide: nice cars, big houses and expensive things to fill the gaps. Still, amid the supposed objects of success, a more figurative void remained. Rather than happiness, materialism had delivered little more than stress, depression and debt.

In separate and personal moments of clarity, both Joshua and Ryan realized that many possessions served no useful purpose, proving the futility of the constant desire for more. Worse, it meant that those cravings had hindered them from freedom and joy. In using the principles of minimalism, Joshua and Ryan took back control, refocused on the important things and started living a personal and financial life by design.

After leaving their jobs, the duo published their first book, Minimalism: Live a Meaningful Life, and began building an online audience that now includes more than 10 million annual readers. They’ve since published two more books, started a chart-topping podcast, and released on Netflix a full length documentary called Minimalism: A Documentary about the Important Things. I spoke to Joshua to better understand the message of the Minimalists.

Zach Conway: Now that you’ve embraced minimalist principles, is it difficult to maintain the lifestyle amid all of the cultural distractions? Do you often need to remind yourself to take your own advice?

Joshua Fields Millburn: I think of minimalism as sort of the counter-narrative to the narrative that suggests consuming more stuff will make you happier in some hypothetical future. I don’t want to completely eschew that way of thinking. I just know that it didn’t work for me. For me, minimalism has been a way to regain control. We retain that control by continuing to be deliberate. Minimalism was a tool that allowed me to live more deliberately. We are constantly bombarded with 3,000 to 5,000 ads a day. Ads aren’t inherently wrong or evil, but we’re encouraged to bring things into our lives to fill a void that may or may not exist. For me, minimalism has been a tool to live that most ideal life. It’s never going to be a perfect life. I think of it kind of like a horizon. Once you sail out to the horizon, there’s always going to be a new horizon. Minimalism is not the path and it’s certainly not the destination. It is simply a tool that gets rid of the excess stuff that’s cluttering the path.

Zach: Skeptics seem to perceive minimalism as a mission to rid the world of any and all consumerism. What do you say to those that think that way?

Joshua: One of the biggest supposed arguments against minimalism we hear is that if we all became minimalists overnight, the economy will crash and we’d all be doomed. The financial system would collapse, and we’d no longer have the money we need to buy cheap plastic stuff from Walmart. I don’t think any informed person would argue we should stop consuming. Consumption is not the problem. Compulsory consumption is the problem. Using consumerism to fix the economy is sort of like fixing a cracked mirror with a hammer. Commerce is an important part of any society, and circumventing consumerism doesn’t imply that a minimalist should sidestep commerce. Instead, minimalism is predicated on intentionality, meaning we spend money more deliberately. When I buy something, I’m constantly asking myself if it will add value to my life. Does it serve a purpose or bring me joy in some way? Ultimately, minimalists aren’t interested in “stimulating” the economy. During the housing crisis, we were encouraged to spend money we didn’t have on stuff we didn’t need. I’d rather look to improve the economy’s long-term health by making better individual decisions. Over the next 20 years or more, I think people will start to make more deliberate decisions that help the economy. Maybe we can rid ourselves of our $12 trillion dollars in consumer debt.

Zach: Many of us buy into the promise of the American Dream. How do you think that idea has shifted over time, and what do you think people sacrifice in trying to attain the dream?

Joshua: We’ve been taught that sacrifice is noble. We’re supposed to forsake certain things to achieve other things. I think that’s okay as long as we’re forsaking the right stuff. I grew up really poor in Dayton, Ohio, with an alcoholic mother. We lived on food stamps. I thought we were discontented because we didn’t have a lot of money. So when I turned 18, I got a corporate job and spent the next decade climbing the corporate ladder. By 27, I was the youngest director in my company’s 140-year history. I managed 150 retail stores and thousands of employees. I was ostensibly successful. So why wasn’t I fulfilled? I was sacrificing all of the things that were actually important like my health and relationships. Even though I told myself that those things were my priorities, how we spend our 24 hours reveals our real priorities. We weren’t all born with the same circumstances, privileges, abilities or talents. But we all have the same 24 hours in a day. I always used to say my health was a priority, but I weighed 80 pounds more than I weigh now. I said my relationships were a priority, but I forsook the people closest to me. My marriage ended when I was 28 because I didn’t pay attention. I also didn’t have time for real passion. I had always wanted to be a writer, and I realized I had to re-prioritize my days to align my short-term actions with my long-term values. That’s my idea of success.

Zach: We live in a world of overexposure. What role do you think social media plays in our consumer culture?

Joshua: Some people are very much against social media. I am not that prescriptive. I think of social media as a technology, and I think of technology as a tool. Just as I don’t eschew all possessions, I don’t eschew all technology. You can use a chainsaw to cut down the rotting tree in the backyard so it doesn’t fall on your neighbor’s house. You could also use that chainsaw to cut your neighbor into tiny little pieces. I could use Twitter, Pinterest or Google+ to enrich my life and the lives of others. I use these platforms as broadcasting tools to share things in which I find value. I can use my smartphone to photograph a gorgeous landscape, to message my loved ones or even to make phone calls. At my worst, I can get stuck in that social media Bermuda Triangle, careening from Facebook to Instagram to YouTube as I get lost in that glow of the screen. If I do that, I realize I’m ignoring the world around me. I actually have removed Facebook and email from my phone.

Zach: People sometimes connect with the grandeur of an idea and then fail at implementation. How do you suggest people make that first leap?

Joshua: People often get inspired but don’t have the leverage to stay motivated. I think it’s most important to focus on why people decide to change rather than how to change. I ask people to think about why their lives might be better with less. That helps them identify the actual benefits of minimalism. Some people think of better health or relationships. At first, I thought about financial freedom. I knew that debt kept me from feeling free. Understanding the purpose of getting the stuff out of the way grants you the leverage to keep going. We also use a bunch of practical steps. We’ve had tens of thousands of people play something we call the 30-day minimalism game, where you compete with a partner to start jettisoning items each day. You can also put rules in place for some additional guidance. We tell people to follow the “just in case rule.” Give yourself permission to let go of anything you’re holding on to “just in case.” We also have the 90-90 rule. Have I used this thing in the last 90 days or do I think I will use it in the next 90 days? In a theory we call the 10-10 material possessions theory, we tell people to write down the 10 things they’ve spent the most money on in the last decade. On the other side of the page, write down the 10 most meaningful experiences of the last decade. Generally there’s zero overlap between the two lists.

Zach: Idealists often throw around the platitude to “follow your passion” in life. But that assumes that we all have some preexisting passion we’re waiting to release. Do you think that’s true?

Joshua: I think that’s bad advice. That idea presupposes that you were born with some sort of innate destiny. In reality, any of us have dozens of things we could be passionate about. We should really look for things that align with our values, beliefs, desires and interests. Then cultivate that into passion. For me, I spent most of my 20s aspiring to be a writer because writing is difficult. I spent 80% of my time wanting to put my head through a wall just to get to the payoff. Real passion comes after we put in the work. We have to be willing to drudge through the drudgery. We too often confuse excitement with passion. We’ll get really excited about an idea for a new business, novel or app, but the excitement wanes in time. We’ll hit a wall when things become difficult and say, “I guess I wasn’t actually passionate about this.” All the passion and all the reward lies on the other side of doing the work.

Zach: As a financial advisor, I constantly need to remind people of the misconceptions of wealth, particularly the notion that having wealth allows for limitless spending. Before the Minimalists, do you think you suffered from those myths?

Joshua: I was living paycheck to paycheck even though I was making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. I did not have financial freedom. Instead, I had about half a million dollars of debt. I was constantly spending toward the next promotion or pay raise as I tried to keep up with the imaginary “Joneses” family. I was broke. Then I spent four years laser-focused on paying down my debt so I felt good about walking away from a career that was no longer aligning with the person I wanted to be. I made $23,000 the first year I walked away from the corporate world and I suddenly felt more financially secure. That feeling had everything to do with replacing my consumer habits with better habits like saving.

Zach: How do you think minimalists should think about and plan for long-term financial independence? Can you be a wealthy minimalist?

Joshua: Yes. I have a multimillionaire minimalist friend who lives very deliberately. I also have friends who are starving artists using the same philosophies. We’re all trying to lead a meaningful life. Today, we have $12 trillion dollars in consumer debt, and so we don’t feel free. In order to cover up that lack of freedom, we pacify ourselves with more purchases and go deeper into debt. But the high we get from the purchase doesn’t last long past the checkout line, and it’s long gone by the time we get our credit card statement. I’ll never get into debt ever again, with the possible exception of a mortgage. To me, financial freedom doesn’t necessarily have a direct correlation with the amount of money we earn. Instead, it has to do with how deliberate we are with whatever resources we have. If we have good habits, money can be a great tool to enrich the world around us and to live more comfortably.

Zach: Up until now, a traditional life cycle meant we started families, bought a house, climbed the corporate ladder, and picked a date to retire. How do you think young people have changed this structure?

Joshua: I’ve heard that people are now going to have seven careers in a lifetime. It’s so different from just a generation ago when you’d go work somewhere for 30 years until you got your gold watch and your pension. Now, you have a life that starts out with a different road map. I think we’ve altered the definition of retirement. I kind of joke that I retired at age 30. That doesn’t mean that I had enough money to live on for the rest of my life. In fact, I didn’t have any money. But I started to align my professional life with my personal life. I think we have de-compartmentalized our lives for the better.

Zach: What’s next for the Minimalists?

Joshua: We’re launching our Less Is Now Tour to take our podcast on the road to about 50 cities through the year starting in April. We started the podcast as a fun project, and it’s since taken off, with about 6 million downloads a month.